Reducing frame size of cattle

thestartupman · #1 05/10/13, 10:01 AM

I have cows that are a size 6 frame size. I am wanting to reduce the frame size too a 3-4 in the long term. What is the smallest size bull that I should, or could put with the cows? I am not sure how apart the bull can be in size before he would have troubkle getting the job done. If a person was to AI, how small of a bull could be used, and how much would it effect the off spring? Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.

randiliana · #2 05/10/13, 10:09 AM

FIrst off, I am curious about why you want to reduce them that much? 6 is a pretty nice size.

That aside, we use yearling bulls all the time, they are usually quite a bit smaller than the cows are, so I would think you could use any bull that would be over 1000 lbs.

thestartupman · #3 05/10/13, 10:12 AM

Just wanting to get anaimals that are more efficient at being raised on pasture only. I want to minimize hay needed as much as possible.

sammyd · #4 05/10/13, 10:21 AM

get sheep

thestartupman · #5 05/10/13, 10:23 AM

I have thought about adding sheep to the farm to go along with the cattle, but not to replace the cattle. I am still trying to figure out how to work them into the rotational grazing.

MDKatie · #6 05/10/13, 10:30 AM

I'm thinking it'd be better in the long run to sell your cattle and buy the type you're interested in. It'll take years of breeding down to create the style you're looking for, and you'll spend lots of time and money to get there.

thestartupman · #7 05/10/13, 10:42 AM

I have thought about doing that, but when I was looking for the type of cattle I really wanted when I purchased these, I had a hard time finding any. It seems everyone in my area are into the bigger the better.

MO_cows · #8 05/10/13, 11:09 AM

Here is a link to a frame score chart and info:
http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/beef...Cattle-FDK.pdf
Mature cows are the last table.

Have you actually measured your cows, or are your eyeballs telling you they are a frame 6? Have they been weighed on a scale? I would take the measurements and be positive of what I had before changing directions drastically.

Sell the cows you have now and buy the kind you want. You can improve some traits and tweak your herd with breeding selection, but for a drastic change like you are talking about, you are better off to start out closer to your goal.

thestartupman · #9 05/10/13, 11:26 AM

No, they have not been weighed, but I have tried to get measurements in the field though. That is how I figured they where about a frame size 6. MO Cows, seeing you are from MO, do you have any good ideas on where to find grass based smaller framed cattle?

genebo · #10 05/10/13, 11:26 AM

My friend used a Dexter bull over Angus cows to produce Dangus calves. They were about 3/4 the size of the Angus calves that the cows produced before. What was formerly a 600# feeder calf was now a 450# feeder calf. What was formerly a 1200# slaughter steer was now a 900# slaughter calf.

He was able to increase the number of cows to partially make up the difference. The calves brought higher prices in their weight categories, to make up more of the difference. Most importantly, the calves graded higher, putting him over the top.

The beef was so good that he developed a steady repeat customer list. Before long, he was selling all the calves directly at slaughter weight for prices that outweighed livestock market prices.

The little Dexter bull never failed to breed all the cows. Every one of the cows could reach down to him when their time came.

He's gone now and a lot of experimentation has been done to find a replacement, using Devon bulls, mainly. He's not happy, due to the number of difficult births and lost calves. He never lost a Dangus calf or had to pull one.

thestartupman · #11 05/10/13, 11:44 AM

genebo, I have thought about the Dexter bull being used, but it is going a little to far on the small side I think. If I ever get into having my animals AI'd, I might try a Dexter on one or two animals.

MO_cows · #12 05/10/13, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestartupman

No, they have not been weighed, but I have tried to get measurements in the field though. That is how I figured they where about a frame size 6. MO Cows, seeing you are from MO, do you have any good ideas on where to find grass based smaller framed cattle?

Grass based??? They are all grass based aren't they? I don't know anyone who keeps their cattle in a pen and delivers feed to them unless they are in the finishing process.

IIRC, you haven't been in Missouri very long. Normally, it is very good cattle country (as long as they are fescue tolerant). However, the last half of 2011 was abnormally dry and then 2012 was full blown severe drought. So the likely reason everybody around you has these good size cows is, under normal conditions, the land and the climate will support them quite nicely. You seem to have started off under abnormal and adverse conditions.

If you are planning on selling "grass finished" beef, then you might want to look at Lowlines. They can be very pricey but small size and ability to finish on grass pretty much defines their niche in the market.

ramiller5675 · #13 05/10/13, 02:52 PM

A small cow is not necessarily more efficient than a large cow, or more suited to a grass-based system.

To my way of thinking, you have to start with a properly proportioned cow (and bull) similar to what is described at: http://www.bovineengineering.com/linear.html

Get good moderately sized bulls that meet the criteria of what you want in your cattle and save the best heifers as replacements. Buying a small bull to downsize your existing cows won't magically give you cattle that are perfectly suited to a grass-based system.

Alaska · #14 05/11/13, 08:49 AM

We are anxiously awaiting the results of putting a lowline (3/4) bull on our three angus(black cows). They calved dec23, jan12 and feb2. The bull turned 1 y/o the end of dec. We still are not 100% sure he has done his duty, but I have not seen any cows cycling recently. Ill try to get pictures to show the difference in size. we love our little lowline bull he is the most mild manored bull I have been around.
Our Angus steer that we finished on grass last year gave us great beef at two years of age. He ate a well rounded diet of weeds, wild flowers,acorns, misquite beans and native grasses. The last couple of months he was allowed to have all the hay he wanted. He fattend up nicely. Well marbled steaks, everybody has raved.

Gabriel · #15 05/13/13, 09:18 AM

http://beefproducer.com/blogs-terms-...es-matter-3624

DJ in WA · #16 05/15/13, 12:13 AM

If a 6'4" lady marries a 5'4" guy, their kids won't all turn out 5"4". They'll be at either extreme, and anywhere in between.

So if you breed big cows to small bulls, you're going to have a wide variation in size, and you'll have to keep selecting for generations to get the ones you want.

In the meantime, getting small calves out of big cows does not make you money. Feeding a big cow all year to produce a small calf is like driving a semi to bring home a bag of groceries.

All of which is why the advice to start with smaller cows is good. Ideally you would have a smaller cow producing a bigger calf, assuming she can calve okay.

ksfarmer · #17 05/15/13, 12:42 PM

Been watching this thread and wondering why anyone would want to downsize a breed of cow. If they are a characteristic size for their breed, why downgrade them? Much better in my opinion to simply sell them and get some that are representative of a smaller breed. If I want something the size of a Dexter, why would I start with a charlois?

Gabriel · #18 05/15/13, 05:30 PM

There is a large variation within pretty much every breed. I have both Dexters and RA and there are small and large within each group... telling him to get ones that are representative is kind of difficult, isn't it?

If you can't find smaller ones, you're pretty much stuck with breeding. I'm in the same boat, almost everyone around here thinks elephants are impressive. Keep the ones you like, butcher/ship the ones you don't!

Alaska · #19 05/15/13, 08:52 PM

My main thought for having a bull smaller than the cows is ease of calving. Heck Im new to this and as much chance of being wrong as right. But I dont want any issues calving if possible.
That and I really enjoy being around a small docile bull.

ksfarmer · #20 05/16/13, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaska

My main thought for having a bull smaller than the cows is ease of calving. Heck Im new to this and as much chance of being wrong as right. But I dont want any issues calving if possible.
That and I really enjoy being around a small docile bull.

Not a 100% solution. One of my biggest train wrecks with cattle was some Simmental heifers bred to Angus. The cow has a lot to do with the size of the calf too. Generally a calving ease bull will make a huge difference but not always.