Trying to build a farm plan. Would love advice

[CraterCove]

So, my husband puts forth this question yesterday afternoon. I'll pass it on to you and see what I can come back to him with.

How many cattle for beef and how many acres would one need to establish in order to clear about 30k a year?

Now the background:

He makes good money when he has a 'real' job. He's a programmer so lets say, gross, he makes somewhere between 80-100k a year. We have some land, the family land in GA, the upper portion of the southwestern portion of Georgia, to give a just about on the climate and potential soil. The 80 acres of family land has creeks through it and some areas that the family wants to keep forested (it really is beautiful). There is another 80 acres next to us that has been on the market for years now. In fact there is a lot of land there for sale that really, no one but someone who already lives down there is going to be interested in.

I have read through some of the threads here searching 'profit' and see that it is doable... especially, if like us, you have off farm income to set up operations with.

What are equipment start up costs? How hard is it to learn how to do your own hay? Are we thinking the wrong direction and should we just be looking to hay instead of cattle? Lots of questions at this point.

I see a lot of mixed info on whether to sell at auctions or sell to feed lots. I was thinking we might get our best profitability by selling calves as much as possible and only growing out what we can't sell in a reasonable time that way. I have no problem doing marketing and in our area of GA I think with a good rotational grazing plan we could raise grass fed and just have the hay for my personal dairy stock and emergencies. The breeds I have been looking at are Angus and Wagyu and Dexter. I like the Angus for the natural polled and I know black does better at market, I guess because it doesn't have to be really Angus, it just has to be black to be butchered and sold as Angus. Wagyu come with a hefty price tag but also with some built in specialty market. Dexters can be run more to an acre, are a homesteading favorite, and I can have my personal dairy stock and the beef stock be the same breed. Though I hear Angus milk is good! I understand that Dexters might be a more specialty market too, even when fully grown they are not going to be as big as their other beef counterparts so the end prices will be less.

Our goals are not to live an extravagant lifestyle. Our goals are to work hard and be able to pay the taxes on our land and buy what we can't grow/ make.

We live in this triangle made up bu Atlanta, Columbus and Macon. Surely between those three cities we should be able to find a good market to cater too. With the difficulties in other areas with drought maybe if we go out of state we could pick up some good starter stock for a better price than locally? With the year 'round creek running through our property I know we can get assistance with ag wells and fencing.

With all of the land and such for sale around here-- for years, most of it coming on five years on the market with no serious takers. I have been thinking about buying these, oft times smaller chunks of land, fencing the clear-able area and renting the houses. As we might find some success in this venture use the houses as partial payment for any help we might need, place to live in exchange for a minimum hours worked onsite, or as part of the wage for working for us.

I suppose this is long enough already... and I have lots more reading to do to try and start compiling a plan!

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by CraterCove

How many cattle for beef and how many acres would one need to establish in order to clear about 30k a year?

Lots of variables there! You need to calculate how many acres it takes to support 1AU and what each animal will bring at market, which is determined by where/how you'll sell.

What are equipment start up costs?

IMO, if you're going to be profitable in good years and bad, the less equipment you have the better off you'll be. Which leads to the next question...

How hard is it to learn how to do your own hay? Are we thinking the wrong direction and should we just be looking to hay instead of cattle?

Hay is "easier" in the sense that you can simply quit, or at least worry less in drought and winter. But(!) it's basically strip mining the fertility of the property, while properly managed cattle can actually improve the soil due to the constant solar input.

Due to it being Sunday morning I'm short on time. Who am I kidding, I'm always short on time... but if I can, I'll get back to you on the rest.

[agmantoo]

With where you are located just come visit me.

[G. Seddon]

Your county extension agent is a good place to start, as well as your state NRCS office; you may qualify for some startup programs (fencing, water, etc.):

http://www.ga.nrcs.usda.gov/

If you start with cattle, make it a breed that is suited to your area and sells locally. Get some "adult supervision" before you go to the salebarn to purchase anything. Educate yourself. Find a local/regional cattle association and attend some of their meetings. (Although I am a Dexter breeder, I would not advise starting out with a registered breed that requires a good deal of testing, etc., to get off the ground. I'd go with something that you can take to the local sale barn if you have to.)

Start slow. Don't overburden yourself with several species; begin with something easy before you expand. You've got a lot of preparation to do to get started. Oh, and keep the day jobs!

[CraterCove]

Thanks for the responses so far.

About Dexters, I know a good deal about that breed as I have decided long ago now that they would be ideal for our family cows. I agree that for a beef operation they might not be the best, especially not for starting out.

I think, the more I read, the more it looks like we should go with Angus if we go purebred. Being polled is such an advantage. And the market seems favorable to them. Also... I have looked up the Georgia Cattle Auctions Weekly Summary, but I can't really turn the info in it into something I can understand and use to make decisions yet. It's like when I first started learning ADGA (I have Saanens) reports and appraisals it's all Greek at first.

I know I need to start trying to test for how much land will support 1AU but... some of the land isn't cleared yet. And some of the potential land we don't own yet. I wonder if one could make the testing a part of the inquiry into the real estate, like one would want an inspection on a house get permission to run soil and pasture tests. We live in the bottoms where we are, in the middle of an old meteor crater. The land is very fertile but it's been let to lay fallow for a long time now, the same with any other land around us that used to be used.

I want nothing to do with strip mining the land. One of the reasons I have gotten into homesteading and we are thinking of giving the cattle farming a go is because we want to have all our food come from responsible sources. I plan to use rotational grazing, cows followed by goats followed by chickens and then a cutting of hay. We are looking for as sustainable a way of life as possible.

[CIW]

Start out with a 5 and a 15 year plan. Break them down into seasonal and annual progress milestones. These can be begun by figuring out what your inputs are going to be over the first 2 years. After that you should know enough about your market to revise and pinpoint your operating costs. That, in turn will allow you to update your 5 and fifteen year plans.
Note: When I figure out how long an implement sets over a year and the cost of realestate to store it. Equipment is pretty expensive. Remember that you can contract to have you crop harvested. (I've found share cropping in the long term isn't a good way to go.)
This is probably one of the chief reasons for failure in agriculture.
Most years you will have a market to sell your hay and at least break even. When you add in trying to make a profit on livestock early in your plan, the odds swing against you pretty quick. Now, in 2 years you will have more experience about your local market.
Opinion: The other thing is that the immediate market with buying in to start a herd of cattle is going to be pretty tough over the next two years. The cattle herd in the U.S. is about 680,000 cows short to produce for 2015.
The lower your initial investment is the better off you are going to be at the end your five year plan. The higher your investment can be in the next 5 years. The closer that you can be to the results in your 15 year plan.
This doesn't mean to go out and borrow to achieve your goals.
Another thing to include is a realistic estimate of hours on a weekly, monthly, and annual schedule. Notice that I say realistic.
The third thing is keeping your market as wide and deep as possible.
When you specialize in something, whatever it is, your risk becomes pretty steep. A few years down the road, when you know your local market, you may be in a better position to narrow the scope of your clientele.
To touch back on the cattle market. If you aren't producing right now. I would say; Set back, produce some hay, gather some capital, watch the markets close. Be ready when those who are in debt have to sell out.
I'm not saying, to not go buy a couple of cows to gain some experience. I'm saying put yourself in a position for a time when the market is in a slump to buy in. The market is going to make a swing.
I hope this helps.

[ArmyDoc]

Hi CraterCove, and welcome aboard! You'll get a lot of good advice here, just bear in mind that each person's advice comes from their own situation and experiences, which may or may not match up with your situation.

I have a couple of questions for you, the first being why 30k per year?

I think the most important thing you can do is really sit down and figure out what your goals are. After that it is easier to work backwards to what it will take to accomplish them. I'm just starting out - I spent 2-3 years planning out what I wanted to do before I finally was able to get started. So far, I've learned three things: 1) It takes more time than I expected. It's not that what I planned on was wrong, it's that there are so many small details I didn't know about/plan for. 2) Much of the best advice I've received was atleast partially wrong for me. In otherwords, even the people who gave me the most valuable, detailed and helpful advice also gave me a few suggestions that I wish I hadn't listened to. 3) Failures truely are just learning experiences if you look at them that way. It's easy to get discuranged, but if you shrugg it off and chalk it up to another learning experience, it isn't so bad. A wise man once said "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience usually comes from bad judgement." So, while I would do some things differently, I don't regret deciding to come down this road at all.

So, my second question is: What are your goals? - Be specific. Why do you want to move to the country? Why do you want to raise cattle? (the two can, but don't have to go hand in hand!)

My last question is: What resources do you have to work with? - finances, manpower, and time are the big three, but you already have the fourth - land!

Best of luck to you.

[CraterCove]

I have lived most of my adult life in the country. My first husband had horses which I took care of along with the home while he worked during the week. When I left him I spent a total of two years in what most people would call a pretty small city and I hated it. Fortunately my second husband got laid off four years ago and that has forced us to move back to his home state of Georgia and take possession of the family land. Even now we are renting five acres in FL while he works in the city over to pay off our mortgage (family held no banks) and pay to have the house fixed up (I never imagined what issues could accumulate over 100 years in a house's life). I have dairy goats and chickens and raise the occasional litter of vermin catching pups. I am no stranger to the hard work involved in keeping animals-- in another life, long ago before I hit my second decade I was studying to be a large animal vet.

My goals, quite simply, are to make it so that our land (and whatever more we can acquire) works again. We want to retire on this (I'm 34 and by the time I am 40 I want this operation humming and ready to make a profit). We see that we need about 30K a year to live on very comfortably. (taxes paid, insurance paid, basic maintenance paid and so forth.)We have no debt but that which is held by our family and will likely be paid off this year. My husband makes 80-100k when he works his day job but it's awful having to whore for someone else and neither of us want the money unless it's working towards a better life for us in the long haul. We want to live off this income and be able to save a little for those days when the rain doesn't fall but maybe we do and bust a hip. I also have three boys (+whatever more we try and have in the next couple of years) and I want to have something of worth for them down the road.

I want to not get up in the morning to send my husband off to work for someone else. I want to get up in the morning and we go to work for each other everyday.

I also want to learn. I crave additional knowledge and have the will to put it into practice.

Cattle because a commercial goat dairy is too far out of reach for me. My goats and chickens and rabbits will be for sustainability and if I get some money from them, awesome. The cattle I want to make the income we need to live comfortably... we don't live extravagantly any more. When I first married him he made over 100k a year and drove one corvette and worked as a hobby on another one. Our priorities have shifted. The money doesn't mean anything if when the store shelves go empty you and your family starve. Getting laid off made us start to work on our lifestyle and just because we have a 'real' job again doesn't mean we are falling back into the consumer lifestyle again. This time we accepted the work and yet another temporary move because we will use the money to build something for ourselves of true value.

30k a year, with no debts, us growing all the meat and plants we can for food and putting up the excess-- I will never own a new car again, it's the poorest use of money I can think of. I make my own jewelry. I cook better (and love to) than any restaurant I've ever been to. We don't want extravagance, I reiterate, we want freedom... as much as any person can expect.

I have paid some high tuition learning to care for my dairy animals. We have utterly failed with our family garden until just recently. 'Wisdom is accumulated scars' I have been told-- but it doesn't make me shy of the process.

[Dreamfarm]

Have you looked at Lowline Angus? They are angus, but smaller.

[CraterCove]

Last time I priced lowlines they were much more expensive than full size Angus. Is the smaller size overall not an issue at market? I'll have to look at what people are charging these days.

[unregistered168043]

Cratercove, my fiance and I are in a very similar situation as you. We have been 'homesteading' here for years and are fairly self sufficient with chickens, rabbits, and some sheep. We produce pretty good sized gardens most years, cut our own heating wood, a little hay and etc.

We would like to make the jump from self sufficient 'homesteader' to income producing 'farm'. We are also, coincidently, looking at an 80 acre property up here in the northeast. Also thinking cattle ( angus ) or hay ( property is now leased out to a farmer for hay which covers property taxes ). Property has an old house which needs some reconditioning and we were hoping to rent it for additional income. We also have some off farm income ( not as much as you probably about 28k ) but we'd have the land mortgage free and property taxes are low.

On the hay side I can tell you that making hay isnt too difficult but the cost of the equipment is high. Do you have a tractor? What size? The tractor needed to hay a larger property like that I'm thinking about 125hp ( mine in currently a 50hp JD ). Balers are expensive. We were considering contracting out for the haying. Keep in touch, let me know how you make out might be we can bounce our experiences off each other.

[CraterCove]

We have a tractor but it's too small for the haying. We have family in the area that do hay but they don't want to even bother with any land that's under 100 acres. But I am hoping that since they sell their old equipment that we can get a decent deal on some older pieces that will still be serviceable.

It's good to hear from someone else and see we are not unique snowflakes but rather part of a number of families that are taking their lives in this direction.

[CraterCove]

Wow... I am only part way through the rotational grazing thread sticky in this forum. Agmantoo is a wealth of information. I think that by reading that thread and others about growing some hay I will be capable of asking some better questions soon.

I love this portion of a project, learning new things. The scary part is putting them into practice with critters lives on the line.

[chronic66]

Do some googling on "mob grazing", also youtube. You're best bet is a cow/calf operation. There is a big market for calves that are raised back there, then, trucked out to areas like southwest kansas where there is a lot of wheat pasture, corn, feedlots and meat packers.

[FarmerDavid]

I'd buy the hay starting out. If you don't have any equipment you'd need to buy a tractor, mower, teader, rake, baler, some way to move the bales.

I've picked up some equipment over the past three years. I mow and rake the hay and a neighbor bales it. Long term I want to own all my own equipment and do custom baling but its expensive to get started, especally if you have the expense of starting up the livestock enterprise at the same time.

[CraterCove]

I am devouring the rotational grazing sticky-- fantastic info in there. I am going to work on getting the plat for the land and seeing how paddocks could be organized. That thread is giving me so much to digest I anticipate I will be having cattle and grass farming dreams tonight!

[FarmerDavid]

I'd love to go to rotational grazing in the future but not yet. Even at that ill still have a lot of ground to bale even if it is just to sell.

[LittleRedHen]

I'd start out small and make sure you even like cows after a few months and you can get an idea on how well your land handles and feeds them. Always start out small until you have a good grasp on all of the ins and outs of that livestock

[kycountry]

We farm 140 acres here in the hills of Ky. and trust me, cattle farming isn't easy and with the rising cost of feed, fuel, and fertilizer.. It isn't very profitable either.

There is a few things to consider when cattle farming...

Get the rubber boots that tie at the top.. if not, plan on having sock feet stuck in the mud when the mud, cow pee, and rotten hay knee deep decides to keep your boot.

Carry a big stick, some cows take it a little personal when you are holding their newborn down tagging, banding, and giving shots..

You need two tractors, feeding hay gets messy in the wet parts of the winter.. If you bury one, you can always get the other one stuck trying to pull it out. Nothing like standing there trying to figure out how the heck you are going to get both of them out.. lol

Two tractors are handy at cutting and fluffing hay and raking/rolling at the same time too.

Remember cows/calves die, that's part of it. Nothing you can do to change it.

In short, if you have a nerve problem, hot temper, don't like the "smell of the country" (cow pee and mud mixed with rotten hay)... and so on all while working daylight till dark for lower than Min wage, find something else to do with the land other than cattle. Don't get me wrong, there is money in cattle, just the farmers see very little of it.

[montysky]

look into raising Brangus cattle instead of Angus, I raise angus and black baldies but I live in Montana down in the South I feel Brangus would handle the heat and Humidity better than a angus. My Wife is from Texas it is real hot down in your neck of the woods



Also only buy used equipment and know how to work on it yourself, never buy new. Maybe you can't do all the repairs but if you could do most of them it would help a lot.



It is hard work, but it gets in your bones and blood and I would not want to do anything else. Good luck to you and your husband.