Pulled heifer's first calf (dead)... Dexter x Mini-Hereford

Rosarybeads · #1 03/08/13, 04:09 PM

We bought some Dexters a few months back and last night our only unproven heifer (she's half Dex and half Mini-Hereford, bred back to a Mini-Hereford bull) had a 45 pound bull calf. I'm guessing she was born in May/June of 2011, making her about 21 months old. It was in the proper position but we weren't expecting her to calf for another month so she had probably been pushing for several hours before we found her. It took us over an hour to get the calf out... Even after we got the head out (tight!) it wouldn't come out easily; plus then it got stuck on the hips too. Once we talked to the vet and actually tied a rope to it, it took us just a minute to get it out. We had been hand pulling before then. We've never even had a calf born on our property before, let alone had to pull one. It was obviously dead after so long. Not the best first experience, especially since we got the Dexters for their easy birthing. LOL (God has a sense of humor!) She couldn't get up last night due to sheer exhaustion and she was shaking (she was out in the furthest corner of the pasture). We gave her water last night and put a sleeping bag on her to keep her warm. LOL This morning she was up (yay!) and eating/drinking. Still walks a little funny and I can tell she is shaky, but seems to be doing okay. We milked her this morning and will plan on doing so once a day now. Giving her molasses water, etc...

So do you think she was bred too young, or was the calf simply too large (45 pounds, nice large head). I guess I am wondering if this is her fault or the bull (mini-hereford) she was bred to. Does 45 pounds seem big? I want to prevent this stuff from happening in the future and so am hesitant to keep anything from her if it's a flaw on her part. But we have a little 7 month old Dexter heifer and now I am going to be extra vigilant to keep the bull away from her until she is older. I do NOT want to go through that again. Thoughts?

But I am glad the next two have already had calves in the past... they should be a piece of cake!

SpaceCadet12364 · #2 03/08/13, 04:33 PM

It depends on her size. If she only weighs 500 lbs yes it is to big. if she weighs 900 lbs no. she may not of been ready to calve a premature calf. Birth canal not opened enough. When someone says she was bred to a easy calving bull I say easy calving for what a beef master or a jersey. ( 150lb or 60 lb calf) and just because he is a mini does not guaranty his calf will be ( not 100% maybe 99.9%) First timers sometimes have complications. stress and other problems can cause premature birth.

haypoint · #3 03/08/13, 05:36 PM

I don't think you did anything wrong.
But, I'll take this opportunity to get on one of my many soap boxes. If you are breeding Dexter to Dexter, you can get birthing weight info on that bull. If you go AI, you can select for low birth weight. Sames goes for all the other cattle breeds. Cross breeding to a bull that you can't research the expected birthing weight is prone to trouble.
Actually, I think she was just too young. Dexters mature slower than other breeds.
When a calf is that large, the head is the first trouble you have, but when the calf's hips lock up inside the cow's pelvis, that is serious. The calf was exerting a lot of pressure on the cow's nerves that control her ability to get up and walk. You were lucky. If the calf would have hip locked, the calf would have had to be taken out in pieces, with flexable bone saw. The wait for that to happen could have cost you your Dexter cow.

Most Dexters don't produce a lot of milk. You might get away with once a day milking. I oppose such a plan. Mastitus is often the result in missed milkings, but that IMHO.

Plenty of minerals and a shot of BoSe a few weeks before calving makes for strong calves with a will to live.

Rosarybeads · #4 03/08/13, 07:44 PM

Yes, I would say that she's probably around 500 to 600 pounds. Dexters only get up to 700 for the most part and she's not fully grown but somewhat close. I kinda suspect it's the bull; I wanted to AI these gals to a really good Dexter line since their genetics are not registered, etc... but they were bred when we bought them. I didn't expect problems meanwhile, but that's farm life I suppose. I will definitely be looking for low birthweight AI genetics!

In hindsight if I had known how to pull a calf I would have put a rope on it immediately and it probably would have come out easier... it was impossible to pull by hand. It took us 15 minutes to get the head out; then I went in to call the vet while hubby got the calf out to it's hips. When I came out with the rope the hips were stuck and just one tug with the rope attached and she came out. So it was probably worse than it should have been because we weren't pulling with a rope. I'm not sure how horrible it actually was because our method wasn't good. I had pulled lambs in my lifetime and had NO IDEA the amount of work a calf was. I feel like we were very much lucky to have it work out and not lose her; and to learn a huge amount from it to par, even about the capabilities of our particular line of cows.

Allen W · #5 03/08/13, 08:32 PM

The calf was to big for the heifer. I wouldn't fault the heifer for it especially since you pulled the calf by hand.

When looking for a bull to breed heifers to you want one with a narrow head and smooth shoulders.

goodhors · #6 03/09/13, 09:51 AM

I am going to agree with the others, she was a bit too young to be bred, plus using a Mini-Herford bull was the wrong choice. I am not totally blaming the bull, since Heifer was a half-bred Hereford herself, the combination of genetics was probably where the weight and size came from. Dexter side didn't have as much influence.

On the purebred Dexter calves I have seen, out of the very short cows, they were LITTLE in both size and weight. None of them 45 pounds from the heifers, though one calf was almost that big from an older, experienced cow. All had very narrow heads after birth, though it widened out later on. None of the heifers or cows needed help birthing them.

When I talked to the Vet on breeding my pure Dexter Heifer, he said to wait until she was 18 months, so she would be more fully grown, able to support carrying the calf and continue her growth, and adding 9months to calveing time, would put her over 2yrs in age. He was really adamant about not breeding her too young, with a lot of problems that could cause to her or calf. Wanted her to have a small calf with it being her first one, so it was easy to deliver with her unstretched pelvis.

I would put that heifer who is too young, behind a COUPLE fences, so there is no chance of the bull getting to her. And if he does, you can call the Vet to have her "cleaned out" right away and prevent a calf.

I would be VERY hesitant to be using a "mini" breed, with possible dwarfism as often happens with the Herefords. Because even though small, dwarf or stunted at times, their genetics run to FULL SIZE Herefords when bred. Herefords are just NOT small cattle! The crossbreds are VERY unreliable in 2nd or 3rd generation, in what the calf will come out like, too many options. It takes quite a few years of breeding to get a stabilized genetic base, to produce reliable animals, when you try to establish new breeds or try resizing them.

Dexters are genetically a breed, and have been around for a long time to be reliable in what you breed and get from them if purebred. The Breed Association is very forward thinking in required testing for a number of things, which are listed on the individual animal's registration form. Right there in black and white, no secrets.

The Dexters do have the dwarfing but carriers are listed on their registrations. With registered animals, possible use of AI semen, the various details of birth weight, any issues to consider are all documented for you in choosing a compatible animal. Bull owners are listing all the bonus features of using their bulls, WANT repeat customers, so you know what you are getting. I would be wanting bull with the polled feature (fairly recent breed development) in a Dexter, because it would save me getting horns removed.

Good luck shopping for a bull or AI semen. Unless you want to breed Mini Herefords, I would let that bull go instead of using him on my Dexter cows and heifers. And more good luck with the two older cows having their calves with no problems. "Learning by doing" is a very harsh way to gain experience.

Rosarybeads · #7 03/09/13, 10:39 AM

Apparently I should clarify. The Mini-Hereford is NOT my bull. When we bought these cows we were mainly after the couple of purebred Dexters in the group of 5. The whole group of 5 cows we paid about 2k for so it was a good deal (we mainly want them to eat their steers each year). The others were already 1/2 Hereford. I got them along with the Dexters because I figured I could breed/eat them and meanwhile work on pure Dexters through the pure Dexter cows and AI. However, they AND the purebred Dexters were already bred to the guy's bull. Which is also the reason why we didn't know when this one was due and it took us off guard... the seller said May/June.

SpaceCadet12364 · #8 03/09/13, 11:50 AM

That was a hard lesson to learn. I hate losing a calf. We had our first time to pull a calf last year.( a white heifer) but you put it behind you learn from it and move ahead.If you get a good bull lined up (ai) you can breed the crosses and work back to full blood's or almost. Keeping the heifers sell cows. My neighbor is doing it with low lines. Has a couple of nice 7/8 lowlines. Heifer calf weighed 27 lbs at birth that is tiny. Bull 33 lbs. cow weighs about 650. bull about 1100 pure bred. So good luck with what you are doing and hope you don't lose anymore.

lakeportfarms · #9 03/09/13, 07:35 PM

She was not only too young but bred poorly as well. Mini Herefords are often not easy calving genetics. There can be some "throwback" full Hereford genetics in there. There was a local breeder of Mini Herefords near us that had to pull or C-section 9 of 13 calves a few years ago, and their bull was not that large. Our Dexter bull has had calves as small as 24 lbs. We've never had one out of him that exceeded 35 lbs. The breeder used our bull's semen and has had trouble free calving ever since.

goodhors · #10 03/09/13, 07:35 PM

RB, the part I misunderstood was the ownership of the bull. Thought he came with the cows, as part of the package. Yeah, you couldn't help the already bred heifer with them allowing their bull to cover her.

I would agree with your plans, using the partbred heifers to just breed, then sell or eat the crossbred calves from them. Does sound like a nice price for the group of bred cows.
Using Dexter semen on them should work, might even get a better price buying it in quantity from bull owner. My Dexter heifer was a good gainer on grass and very little grain. I couldn't believe how well she put on the weight grazing. So the calves with Dexter in them should do well for you as beef, in a shorter time frame. I saw market ready steers, not much over a year old. Well filled out, looked like the winner at the Fair, which saves time in letting cattle stay on the farm to be market ready. They were getting some grain, adds the fat layer for tender beef.

Oakshire_Farm · #11 03/09/13, 07:41 PM

I have Jersey cows and cross them to my Dexter bull ALL of my calves average 20-25lbs at birth. I would guess my Jerseys to be 700ish lbs. My Dexter bull is about the same, on much shorter legs.

I would guess that is far to big of a calf. When I first got my bull I turned him out with the cows and my heifer was about 8 months old......... well at 14 months old my heifer delivered a healthy tiny 20lb calf. No problems.

Rosarybeads · #12 03/09/13, 08:33 PM

Wow, so it definitely was a big calf then. I guess I'll give her a break... I have to admit I've really fallen in love with the girl... she gave us almost a gallon of milk on her 2nd day of milking and it tastes so good... I'm very impressed for her being half Mini-Hereford. The last time I hand milked our neighbor's cow while they were on vacation I couldn't drink it because of the "smell" and the Dexter is fine in spite of my pregnant ultra-sensitive nose. I'm so happy! She's also very sweet even though she is nervous during the milking... we've never owned a milking cow and she's relatively comparable to our neighbor's 4 year old Jersey so I'm pretty happy with that considering she's never been milked before.

I'm thinking my Dexters have good milking genetics (the pure Dexter has an AWESOME large bag and I think this heifer is her daughter from a couple years ago)... so I am going to work on their other flaws. I need to get any offspring tested for the genetic issues as well... I want to breed it out of ours have it (which is possible since they were not tested). Now I have some more great ideas for the AI from all of your help... I think I have a pretty good picture of what I want in bull semen now.

cathleenc · #13 03/10/13, 08:26 AM

I am sorry about the calf but so glad you got the cow through! Even better that you and she are doing so well milking together.

May this be the only dead calf for years and years and years!

G. Seddon · #14 03/10/13, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodhors

The Breed Association is very forward thinking in required testing for a number of things, which are listed on the individual animal's registration form. Right there in black and white, no secrets.

The Dexters do have the dwarfing but carriers are listed on their registrations.

Want to clarify: The ONLY testing required by the ADCA at this time is genotyping of bulls in order to register a calf. Chondro and PHA are at the owner's option and are only listed on the pedigree if obligate non-carriers (sire and dam have been tested non-carriers). Depending on the sire and dam, there are some color tests required to register a calf.

A2 milk testing is also optional and isn't listed anywhere on pedigrees or registrations.