Have a few questions about the Simangus breed

dragonmorgan · #1 01/17/13, 10:30 PM

We are hoping to, in the future, have our own herd of cows for a cow/calf operation. Since black cows sell the best around here, as they seem to everywhere right now, I have been looking into good black breeds. The Simangus breed is one that I am really leaning towards but I don't know alot about them. We want to be mainly grass-fed so they would have to be able to maintain and do well off grass. I know angus do but I don't know much about Simmentals on grass.

Another big delima seems to be how to get started. Would it be better to start with a herd of Angus and then breed to a Simmental bull or vice versa? Angus cows would be easier to come by around here and then all I would have to worry about would be the bull. Traveling for one bull would be easier than traveling for a group of cows I would think. Or I could AI the cows since the herd would be relatively small (maybe 6 or 7 to start out). I have heard that Simmentals can have calving problems. Should I just skip all the cross breeding and go straight for a herd of Simangus? I have only seen a few Simangus cattle around here and it was all just bulls on craigslist, which is the only place I have really checked. I might could find a farm around here that sold them.

myheaven · #2 01/17/13, 11:17 PM

What is the Average weight of calves out of each breed? If it was me and the simmintenial are small enough at birth I would go angus cow simm bull. But I have no experience in the simms. None at all.

haypoint · #3 01/18/13, 06:59 AM

Fifty percent Simmental calves had the heaviest birth weight

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6746434

I'd stick with Angus. Get a head lock that they can eat in while restrained, use it alot and AI them.

bigbluegrass · #4 01/18/13, 07:16 AM

It is actually a pretty common beef cross. I know plenty of folks who do it with Angus cows and Simmental bulls or Simmental cows and Angus bulls. I have heard it is a great cross for a normal commercial operation. Calves are big at weaning, they grow well in the feedlot and provide a lot of beef in a normal operation. I am not sure your goals, since saying you are mainly grass based is pretty much what every cattle farmer in the US could say. These are going to be big cows (if you keep crossbred cows). Normal weight for this cross is probably 1500 lb and up for cows and bulls easily going over 2000 lbs. With that said, if you were REALLY picky you might find the right type of cows and bulls to make it work on a 100% grass or hay diet. Most of these types of cows do need some kind of grain or extra feed. They are not like highlanders or Dexter and can live on brush and scrub (in general).

No matter what breed you go with, the most important thing is to find the right type of cows and bulls in that breed or breeds. There are some great Angus genetics for grass. There are some that are made for feedlots. Some great Simmental for grass and some that will only perform in a feedlot. You have to pick through them and find the good ones!

I'm done.

bigbluegrass · #5 01/18/13, 07:21 AM

By the way, almost any breed comes in black anymore! I even heard of a black Charolais!You have to look at what your advantage(s) is/are over everyone else to make any money at it. If this is a hobby - it doesn't matter. Most small cattle businesses don't make anything or barely break even.

Now I'm done

Chixarecute · #6 01/18/13, 07:47 AM

If you are new to cattle, I would not start out with this cross....or calving out this cross. Simmentals throw big calves and are double muscled in the rear end, which can also lead to calving difficulties for Sim heifers (or so I learned in the '80s). Start with angus, develop your experience, and learn more about crossbreeding. Crossbreeding has pros and cons.

bama-newsteader · #7 01/18/13, 09:02 AM

Best wishes for your cow/calf plans. Where in Bama are you??? We are in Boaz and started with cows just over a year ago. Ours is not much of an operation, just want to keep beef in the freezer and sell a few calves each year. We have black and red - color doesnt much matter to us. You are right, everyone seems to want black here. Our neighbors have quite a bit of success with their Brangus cattle - black and yet more heat tolerant.

dragonmorgan · #8 01/18/13, 10:37 AM

Right now my FIL has a herd of mutt cows that my DH helps him with. Since my FIL is getting to the point he can no longer work the cows we will be taking over in the future. Right now the cows only bring in enough money to break even (sometimes

) and I want to get it to the point where it is a little more profitable. We aren't tryin to make it rich or quit our jobs or anything but since Im a SAHM a little extra income never hurts and we both love working with the cows.

We are in south Alabama, about an hour or so from Montgomery. The operation is not grass fed at the moment but we are planning on moving the cows to another field and hope to be able to set it up to use as little hay as possible and I would prefer not to have to give grain either unless it is really necessary. I would love to go Brangus since me and DH both have a special affinity for Brahamas but their influence in calves is docked at our sale barns.

I wouldn't mind building up an angus herd to get good grass fed genetics (maybe using a pharo cattle bull or something) and then add in a Simm bull down the line. All the calves we have ever had have been crosses. Usually they just use whatever bull they can get for a decent price. The cows they have now are pretty big and I am wanting to downsize to a more efficient frame size. I am just trying to get this all figured out and researched well ahead of purchase time. I don't want to leap off into anything blindly.

Dreamfarm · #9 01/18/13, 10:59 AM

For all grass have you considered Lowline Angus?

dragonmorgan · #10 01/18/13, 11:09 AM

I have but I dont know much about them. The main reason I am considering the Simangus cross is because I have read that they muscle up better than the straight angus. I am not sure about how the lowline does though compared to the full size angus. I do like the efficiency I have heard that lowlines have and since we don't have a huge plot of land to be working with their size would be an advantage. I have not seen many around here though so their availability, compared to the reg angus, and how well they would do at the sale are things I am unsure about too. I am open to looking into them though if they would be a good comparable breed to the Simangus though.

bigbluegrass · #11 01/18/13, 11:39 AM

Keep in mind you don't need black cows to get black calves. You can have a red cow and breed her to a homozygous black bull and you will get black calves. Black is a dominant gene and a homozygous black bull over most any cows will result in black calves. There are several breeds that are or have homozygous black genetics. Once again, it only works if you know the bull is homozygous black - so buying a bull from the salebarn for slaughter price will not work. Buying a neighbor bull that "is mostly" black angus - will not work. You would need to get a registered bull with papers and a pedigree to know.

Now the disclaimer: There is a diluter gene is some breeds (Charolais, Gelbvieh, Murray grey, etc.) that c/would result in a grey or yellow calf. There is a wild color gene in others (Longhorn, shorthorn, etc.) that could result in a pattern or other odd coloring. A Hereford cross will almost always have a white face.

dragonmorgan · #12 01/18/13, 12:35 PM

That is why I was thinking of using AI. Then I know that I am getting a homo black bull. Or maybe once I get a nice herd of anugus and Simangus cows I can just make sure we get our bulls with paperwork and such. I think there may be a Simangus farm to 2 in the state that might be able to point me in the right direction for that. So long as they are mostly black it should be ok. Honestly, I prefer cattle with some color. It makes them more unique to me but people have it in their head that black is better and because we will be so small (compared to what other people around here have at least) we need every advantage we can get at the stockyard.

opportunity · #13 01/18/13, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonmorgan

That is why I was thinking of using AI. Then I know that I am getting a homo black bull. Or maybe once I get a nice herd of anugus and Simangus cows I can just make sure we get our bulls with paperwork and such. I think there may be a Simangus farm to 2 in the state that might be able to point me in the right direction for that. So long as they are mostly black it should be ok. Honestly, I prefer cattle with some color. It makes them more unique to me but people have it in their head that black is better and because we will be so small (compared to what other people around here have at least) we need every advantage we can get at the stockyard.

Since you are looking at such a small number of calfs have you considered keeping the calfs to butcher weight then selling them. I have made more money off my butcher animals then my calfs at the sale barn here they want a truck load that are all the same and I can't do that.

ksfarmer · #14 01/18/13, 04:36 PM

Due to past experience, it is my humble opinion that if you use a Simmental bull on angus cows, you better have a calf puller and/or a friendly nearby vet.
On the flip side, if you have simmy cows, you better have a good feed supply.

dragonmorgan · #15 01/18/13, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksfarmer

Due to past experience, it is my humble opinion that if you use a Simmental bull on angus cows, you better have a calf puller and/or a friendly nearby vet.
On the flip side, if you have simmy cows, you better have a good feed supply.

I've heard that about Sim calves causing birthing problems. Would AIing to a low birth weight bull help this? Do the crosses normally carry that over and have trouble calving as well?

Gabriel · #16 01/19/13, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonmorgan

Right now the cows only bring in enough money to break even (sometimes

) and I want to get it to the point where it is a little more profitable. We aren't tryin to make it rich or quit our jobs or anything but since Im a SAHM a little extra income never hurts and we both love working with the cows.

It's a worthy goal and there's absolutely no reason to lose money on this project. I firmly believe that while genetics matter, they're not as important as how you manage your grass. Read the rotational grazing sticky at the top of this forum for a good idea on how to start. Management Intensive Grazing by Jim Gerrish is a good book on the subject.

Unless you firmly believe that the economy is about to turn around, fuel will drop significantly in price as will grain and the Fed will stop inflating, your input costs will have more input on your bottom line than will the price you receive for the calves. Don't worry about the breed flavor of the month and what will get high weaning weights, think about what will give you gain for the lowest cost ratio.

loli · #17 01/19/13, 11:58 AM

years ago we had a small herd of registered simms and I bought a black angus bull to cross them with. All the heifers were born a liver color with white faces and the bull calves were either red or black baldies. The heifers were born that liver color every year. Go figure. Never had any problems with having to pull calves or anything.

ksfarmer · #18 01/19/13, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonmorgan

I've heard that about Sim calves causing birthing problems. Would AIing to a low birth weight bull help this? Do the crosses normally carry that over and have trouble calving as well?

Using a low birth weight bull will always help. I did also have trouble with some simm cross cows bred to a smaller breed bull. Some of the large calf problem is inherent to the simm breed cows.

dragonmorgan · #19 01/19/13, 02:42 PM

I def dont see the economy getting better any time soon. I am so ready for all this to be underway. From what i am understanding it looks like we need to get our fields in order first. Ive read the rotational grazing sticky and found it so helpful. Once we get ready to pick up supplies i plan to reread it. I took notes too so i have alot of it written down. Once out field is on the right track we will probably just get some angus cows from around here and AI, probably to an angus bull with good grass fed genetics. Once our herd is doin good and the kinks from that are worked out and we have our groove goin we can then look into crosses or if we are doin well enough we may just stick with what we got for a while longer.

Thanks for all the input. I do like the way the Simangus sounds so long as we can be careful of the birthing problems. But that can be in the future, once we are "pros" at the general operation. No need to get fancy right out the gate, right?

bigbluegrass · #20 01/19/13, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonmorgan

I've heard that about Sim calves causing birthing problems. Would AIing to a low birth weight bull help this?

You want high CED (Calving ease direct) - higher is better. That means that bulls calves will come easier than another bull of the same breed. Breed average is 7.5 right now - so I would make sure you are at least 10 or higher.

Also, BW (birth weight) - lower is smaller and better. I would look more at CED than BW, but do look at BW as well. Not all small calves come easy. Breed average on BW is 0.7 right now, I would try to be around 0 or negative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonmorgan

Do the crosses normally carry that over and have trouble calving as well?

You want high MCE (maternal calving ease) - higher is better. That means any retained heifers will have an easier time calving than daughters of another bull of the same breed. Breed average is 10.3 right now, I would try to get to 15 or higher.

Obviously there are no guarantees you will not have calving problems, you would just be reducing your risk by picking a calving ease bull. Half of the genetics come from the mother. She can still throw a big calf with a calving ease bull.

By doing AI you can really pick good bulls with proven records. I would stick to the old proven bulls and stay away from the young low accuracy ones.

Also consider if you can be around during calving. As many have said, you could and probably will have calving problems. Can you be there to check on them every few hours during calving? If you are there, have you ever pulled a calf?