Bull to cow ratio???

greatwhiteape · #1 12/30/12, 03:01 AM

Lets say that you are mob grazing on irrigated pasture.

Stocking rates claim that you can go as high as 500,000 pounds per acre.

You are grazing quarter acre pasture daily with 60 cows (and their calves).

Could one bull handle all 60 cows without missing any?

I ask this because he would never have to travel more than 100 feet to find the cow in estrus.

G. Seddon · #2 12/30/12, 07:51 AM

I'm not sure that intensive grazing and bull power are directly related. I think there's a little more to it than simply locating the cows. I've always heard that the number of cows should not exceed the bull's age in months.

Here's an article on bull power that seems fairly comprehensive. It has a lot of good info on caring for bulls. Scroll down to the small table that outlines bull to cow ratio:

http://www.thecattlesite.com/article...and-management

Gabriel · #3 12/30/12, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhiteape

Lets say that you are mob grazing on irrigated pasture.

Stocking rates claim that you can go as high as 500,000 pounds per acre.

You are grazing quarter acre pasture daily with 60 cows (and their calves).

Could one bull handle all 60 cows without missing any?

I ask this because he would never have to travel more than 100 feet to find the cow in estrus.

Stocking rate and stocking density are two different things and I'm a little confused about what you mean, because you can get a much higher density than 500,000 #'s per acre. It does seem like a high density helps the bull walk less, or maybe it's just the better nutrition...

I can't address the bull question from personal experience, but have had a lot of people tell me theirs and I'll relay those. "It depends on the bull." Grain feeding reduces the fertility, as do permethrins, so it seems to me that there's some benefit in raising your cattle au natural, if you can.

Wanda · #4 12/30/12, 08:42 AM

If you have a defined calving season you will need more bulls in the mix. If you calve all year around that will change greatly!

G. Seddon · #5 12/30/12, 09:44 AM

I am trying to visualize 60+ cows on 1/4 acre of pasture (ummm, what pasture?). How do you spell feedlot?

greatwhiteape, if you are even remotely serious about this, please reconsider.

ksfarmer · #6 12/30/12, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhiteape

Lets say that you are mob grazing on irrigated pasture.

Stocking rates claim that you can go as high as 500,000 pounds per acre.

You are grazing quarter acre pasture daily with 60 cows (and their calves).

Could one bull handle all 60 cows without missing any?

I ask this because he would never have to travel more than 100 feet to find the cow in estrus.

I must be missing something! Are you saying you could have 500 cows (1000lbs each) on one acre of irrigated pasture?? This is more cows than a feedlot would have in such a concentrated area. There durn sure wouldn't be any grass left.
As G.Seddon says: 60 cows on 1/4 acre?? I think someone needs to recheck their figures. Common sense says this is impossible.
Might be a lot of bull somewhere??

MO_cows · #7 12/30/12, 11:13 AM

For a controlled breeding season, 60 cows to one bull is way too many. Don't take the risk, don't skimp on bulls. Open cows cost you money.

Feeding grain doesn't make bulls infertile in and of itself. Overfeeding bulls especially when they are still growing/developing is what can create problems.

oregon woodsmok · #8 12/30/12, 11:15 AM

60 cow calf units on 1/4 acre? I don't think so.

Gabriel · #9 12/30/12, 11:49 AM

Y'all are having the same trouble I did, his terminology about stocking rate vs. stocking density is confusing. You can stock at the density he's talking about (I know, because I often do), but that's not the stocking rate, unless it's a feed yard.

agmantoo · #10 12/30/12, 12:27 PM

I am feeding roughly 100 mature animals and 46+ calves on 36000 sq. feet of fescue seeded paddock per day currently. 0ne mature bull has been very capable of impregnating the cows that are on a year round calving operation. All animals are in a single herd.
This is a typical 120 ft by 300 ft daily allocation of stockpiled fescue. Part of the paddock is hidden by the hill in the forefront. I permit small calves to graze ahead of the herd as seen.
Bull to cow ratio??? - Cattle

greatwhiteape · #11 12/30/12, 01:39 PM

Agmantoo, thanks for the response.

The quarter acre pasture is just what they get at one sitting. The cattle get moved at least once per day depending on available forage. With a system like this I had planned on having 30 irrigated acres, broken into 120 quarter acre paddocks. The animals would be let out on one paddock per day and there would be a 120 day rotation before hitting the same paddock again. Obviously, things don't always work out perfectly, but that is the plan.

Under this system you only graze each paddock for one day, and only three times annually. You may think of it as a feedlot, and I guess that it is a feedlot of sorts. Instead of using expensive grain though you are forcing your animals to consume as much of the grass forage as possible every day.

Stocking rate or density? I'm not big on the technical terms. What I'm trying to do is put the cattle on JUST ENOUGH pasture to make sure that they get their fill of forage for the day without allowing them to be picky or choosy about what they're eating. Then the next day you move them onto another little piece of pasture that has been growing for 120 days. From my research it is absolutely the most cost effective way to feed beef cattle.

I had planned on cutting hay, preferably for selling as I hope that my cattle will have enough to eat solely from grazing. This will be my first stab at Mob grazing so I think that its smart to have at least a 30 day supply of hay on hand for every animal.

I'm trying to start small, which is why I am only going to devote 30 acres to this project at the moment. If there end up being too many animals on this piece, which I don't think that there will be, I'm sure I won't have a lot of problems selling bred heifers for more than I paid for open heifers.

There is a lot of science behind this, but I don't want to dive full in without running it on a small scale first.

My family has raised polled hereford cattle traditionally grazing them and finishing on grain for steers and feeding tons of hay all winter long to breeding stock. When I see a better way to do something, and hopefully a better animal in lowline angus cattle, I want to make the change.

agmantoo · #12 12/30/12, 08:19 PM

greatwhiteape

If you have not already done some reading on the sticky above on rotational grazing I strongly suggest that you do. Post your questions regarding rotational grazing there and I attempt to answer them. I did not see any reference as to your location. I have never owned any lowline cows but I can tell you that in my process a frame size 4 or under weighing about 1050 lbs performs best. On grass alone you will not want a heavy milking animal. You will want your calves consuming grass and quantities of it as early as possible allowing the cow to breed back and stay in condition for the next calf. I try to hold the brood stock in body condition score 5, never heavier. When I moved the herd this afternoon I took a pic that better represents the 120 ft by 300 ft layout. The white posts are 60 ft apart so it is easy for me to know how much area I am allocating. PS...on the left of the pic you can see the calves grazing ahead of the herd and hopefully putting on weight from the better forage.

Bull to cow ratio??? - Cattle

greatwhiteape · #13 12/31/12, 12:41 AM

I read about 20 pages of stuff earlier and didn't see anything on bull to cow ratio. I'm in NJ at the moment, but will be attempting this project in Georgia.

Gregg Alexander · #14 12/31/12, 03:01 AM

Rule of thumb is mature bull for every 20-25 cows. Long yearling bull can cover 15-20 cows. Use more bulls to cover your cows.

G. Seddon · #15 12/31/12, 07:39 AM

greatwhiteape, what experience do you have with cattle?

topside1 · #16 12/31/12, 07:44 AM

Your question hinges on: Frame score, condition score, soundness, libido, diet, muscleing, energy, age, scrotal circumference, structural correctness, and so on. Use the rule of thumb that Gregg A mentioned as a starting point. Topside

opportunity · #17 12/31/12, 09:52 AM

I do not think you will have all the cows breed on the first heat let alone the second it's not just about finding the cows but allso about servicing them. You can use a bull to service more cows but it takes more time even if he is with them he can't be in two places at one and it takes time to "refill" You bull would also loose a lot of condition working that hard.

DJ in WA · #18 12/31/12, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanda

If you have a defined calving season you will need more bulls in the mix. If you calve all year around that will change greatly!

This is the biggest issue. How spread out do you want your calving to be?

If you want a tight calving season, you'll need more bulls. Only problem is with two bulls in a small space, the dominant bull will keep the other bull from breeding, so the second bull won't be worth as much. And there will be fighting, and wasted energy with two bulls breeding the same female. Would be best to divide the herd so only one bull per section.

Some good reading:
http://www.sdstate.edu/vs/extension/...-Fertility.pdf

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S

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ocial

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Dominance. A definite social ranking develops among bulls, and this ranking may affect the number of cows a given bull will service in a multiple-sire herd (table 3). Livestock managers must be aware of these relationships to ensure normal breeding rates. For example, a dominant bull with poor semen quality or low libido could reduce pregnancy rates for an entire herd, even when more fertile subordinate bulls are present.
Table 3. Percent calf crop sired by individual sires in multiple sire pastures (Adapted from Lehrer et al. 1977).

A bull’s seniority is the major factor influencing its social ranking; the dominant bull in a breeding cadre is likely to be an older bull (Chenoweth 1997). Therefore, it is important not to introduce a young (yearling) bull into a herd with an older, more mature bull. Introducing young bulls into a herd with an older bull can be avoided by separating cows into single-sire breeding groups. In multiple-sire breeding groups, multiple bulls tend to breed the same sexually responsive females. This leads both to females being bred by more than one bull and to an increased risk of bull injury.

greatwhiteape · #19 12/31/12, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. Seddon

greatwhiteape, what experience do you have with cattle?

I've been raising polled herefords here in New Jersey for 14 years. We've always just stuck them on pasture at about one cow per acre and then just fed hay when the grass got in short supply. Always fed grain to finish off anything we were gonna eat or sale.

I have always watched my family stick to the old ways and throw money out the window.

greatwhiteape · #20 12/31/12, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Alexander

Rule of thumb is mature bull for every 20-25 cows. Long yearling bull can cover 15-20 cows. Use more bulls to cover your cows.

I've always heard 1 cow per month of age up to three years. I didn't know if the bull having to cover less ground would effect his fire power.

I don't mind using more bulls, that just means splitting the herd and having more fencing.