Need ideas

thestartupman · #1 12/07/12, 10:22 PM

Ok, I have been on here before asking for help on rotational grazing. I pretty much have my plan for fencing layout, although not complete in getting everything set up. I currently have a 80 acre property, with about 40 acres in pature. It has had no animals on it in the last year. I mowed the weeds with a very high setting, to save as much grass as possible. Most of the fields have 12-16" of grass in them. It looks like it is mostly good green fescue. Ok, here begins my question. I am wanting to start a cow calf pair set up. I have been told that the property could run 20 cow calf pairs. I curently have only 120 square bales of hay that I had cut off a small field before the drought hit. The neighbor seems to think I could make it through the winter with 10-12 cow calf pairs without feeding hay unless a ice storm would hit. I guess my thoughts would be to buy 12-16 cow calf pairs, that are bred back, and also buy 15-20 round bales to give me a little better buffer. I would keep any heifers that I thought would be worth keeping. Probably have them AI next time around, then bring a bull in to be kept with the herd once I had 18-20 cows. The biggest problem I see with this plan, is finding 3 in 1's at a reasonable price, or finding them at all for that matter. Any other thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

SpaceCadet12364 · #2 12/08/12, 07:23 AM

Sometimes you can't find what you want so you settle for what you can find. Cow/heifer ready to calf in the spring. Heifer that will be ready to breed next year. Cow with calf at her side. Or a bunch of weaned calves feed them up to sell in the spring make more money to buy what you want or registered animals.

thestartupman · #3 12/08/12, 07:32 AM

I am looking at other options also. That is the reason I put this post on here is to get more ideas. I do believe that the prices are going to go up this spring, and would sure like to have my first set of breeding stock. I know I will have to work on the frame size for several years to get the type of animals I want.

ramiller5675 · #4 12/08/12, 10:53 AM

If I was starting over again, I'd take some time and find a group of quality bred heifers. All the same breed and all ready to calve about the same time.

Then, I'd probably sell all the heifer calves out of that group and buy some more bred heifers from the same source instead of saving replacements. That way I'd have a group of cows that were hopefully sort of related and similar in breeding.

I'd buy a good bull, and only start saving replacements when my herd size grew to the size that I could justify having two bulls and two herds.

Start out with a small herd that are all pretty similar and it's easier in the long run to breed them into what you want in a herd. It's much easier that way compared to having a group of cows that all look different and all calve at a different time with an inconsistent calf crop for years.

It might cost a little more in the beginning to do it this way, but in the long run I think it will save time and money, and give you a better herd.

thestartupman · #5 12/08/12, 12:57 PM

The only problem I can see with that plan is that I plan on calving year around.

ramiller5675 · #6 12/08/12, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestartupman

The only problem I can see with that plan is that I plan on calving year around.

Why would you want to calve year round with a small herd?

You are going to end up selling a calf or two at a time which doesn't make any sense. Or, you are going to be trying to wean a few calves at a time which is going to be a major headache. You are going to make more money selling a uniform group of 10-20 calves than a few calves at a time spread out over the year.

I can come up with a whole lot more reasons to argue against calving year-round, but I don't see many advantages.

agmantoo · #7 12/08/12, 06:19 PM

Judging from the impact of the extended drought and the anticipated profits that cow/calf producers are expecting come Spring I believe you will be hard pressed to find cow calf pairs. There will be some producers that will run short of Winter feed and those people will IMO sell off the calves at a lighter weight but retain their known producers in hope that Spring will bring on forage growth. You may find a window of opportunity to purchase some thin brood cows that are bred in late January and early February as feed becomes scarce. My plan would be to get prepared, hold the hay and the growth in the paddocks and to not procrastinate. From late February forward, provided the drought breaks, I think replacement cow prices will be too high to justify buying. During that period I would buy cull thin cows to graze the paddocks and then to be sold off in the Fall. Some money can be had with the thin animals and you would not have to over Winter them. All the while you can be watchful for cattle to start your herd.

sammyd · #8 12/09/12, 05:43 AM

If you're running a dairy then calving year round is OK, if you're running beef you want all the calves at once, just easier in so many ways and it's much nicer to have a potload ready to go rather than dribs and drabs....

G. Seddon · #9 12/09/12, 07:20 AM

The benefits of a breeding season include:

Knowing when to expect calves instead of not having a clue;
You can avoid extreme heat and cold, both of which can be highly stressful on animals/people;
It's easier on people not to have to go out on the cold dark January night in freezing rain to check on a cow that might be calving (do you really want to do that on 40 acres?);
Weaning a group of calves all at the same time;
You'll have a better idea of cows' fertility because they'll have been bred within a 2 month time frame and the ones who come up empty will be easier to spot (of course, if you have them preg-checked, you'll know this beforehand).

agmantoo · #10 12/09/12, 08:57 AM

There is a flip side of calving at one time

With once a year, you will market at one time and that time will coincide when everyone else is marketing. When the market is flooded prices typically drop.

Marketing year round will spread the income over the year resulting in a better cash flow instead of a single paycheck.

You may need more bull power as the breeding period is over a short period instead of being spread over the year.

The work load for treating the calves is spread over the year.

The forage required for the calves will not peak at one time. Better utilization of the pastures could result.

If the market is volatile, holding some calves or selling some calves is more of an option.

Not too likely but if there was a disease outbreak the entire calf crop would not be as apt to be impacted.

If you were not selling through the sale barn, there could be a continuous throughout the year supply for direct marketing beef.

The bull could be kept with the herd year round resulting in a single herd. Cows will be bred following calving resulting in more calves over time instead of 1 calf ever 12 months

Gabriel · #11 12/09/12, 04:16 PM

Quote:

With once a year, you will market at one time and that time will coincide when everyone else is marketing. When the market is flooded prices typically drop.

He hasn't said how he'll be marketing. Even if he just goes to the sale barn, with the appropriate stocking rate he's not locked into selling at the same time everyone else does. The reward for well managed grass is quite possibly as high as it's ever been. No reason not to run the grass forward, if you can.

Quote:

Marketing year round will spread the income over the year resulting in a better cash flow instead of a single paycheck.

It does ease the cash flow crunch, but with 12-20 calves I don't think this is going to be his full time gig.

Quote:

You may need more bull power as the breeding period is over a short period instead of being spread over the year.

He's thinking of a max' of 20 cows right now, 1 bull will handle that work load easily.

Quote:

The work load for treating the calves is spread over the year.

It's only 20 calves, so again, not a big deal.

Quote:

The forage required for the calves will not peak at one time. Better utilization of the pastures could result.

If he'll time the calving to the spring growth, that's actually a benefit, not a drawback.

Quote:

If the market is volatile, holding some calves or selling some calves is more of an option.

Again, it all depends on his marketing plan.

Quote:

If you were not selling through the sale barn, there could be a continuous throughout the year supply for direct marketing beef.

I direct market and find that's not a problem. Not all the animals finish at the same time (unless you have a group of clone cows) and even when they do, my customers expect to fill a freezer once or twice a year. Only a few expect to buy from me more than twice in a year, most only do it once.

Quote:

The bull could be kept with the herd year round resulting in a single herd. Cows will be bred following calving resulting in more calves over time instead of 1 calf ever 12 months

I'm unconvinced of the advantage in that system. I know you do that and I'm glad it works for you, but you've spent many years developing a herd that thrives on your excellent pastures. The OP won't have good animals or great grass for quite some time to come, so they may not be able to produce like yours do without supplementation. The key to consistently good income isn't a high price for your product, it's a consistently low production cost. Even in this time of historically high prices, my neighbor is constantly complaining and he's not the only one. Most people claim they're not making any more than they used to. I think people should learn to work in sync' with nature, learn to manage their pasture and improve their animals, and only when they've mastered that to try to swim against the current.

agmantoo · #12 12/09/12, 05:13 PM

I'm unconvinced of the advantage in that system. I know you do that and I'm glad it works for you, but you've spent many years developing a herd that thrives on your excellent pastures. The OP won't have good animals or great grass for quite some time to come, so they may not be able to produce like yours do without supplementation. The key to consistently good income isn't a high price for your product, it's a consistently low production cost. Even in this time of historically high prices, my neighbor is constantly complaining and he's not the only one. Most people claim they're not making any more than they used to. I think people should learn to work in sync' with nature, learn to manage their pasture and improve their animals, and only when they've mastered that to try to swim against the current.

You don't hear me grumbling regarding not making a profit. I do fully agree with your statement The key to consistently good income isn't a high price for your product, it's a consistently low production cost. My intent is to assist those that want to be a low cost producer to get there as easily as possible. People are intelligent and can multitask, especially with some support. Hopefully they can also extract from some of my posts information that they can try and/or apply that will benefit their operation. I am fully aware that what I do is not applicable to everyone. I just try to share in the few minutes it takes to read a post what it took me sometimes years to learn. Learning on my own and doing what other conventional producers did, I never made a nickel profit for the first 3 years I owned cattle.

Gabriel · #13 12/11/12, 04:44 PM

I know you do well and I respect you for your innovation. But I've learned that you can do things that are almost polar opposites and succeed with both actions... if you understand they "why" and not just the "what". So I thought I'd share the flip side of the coin.

stifflej · #14 12/12/12, 09:46 AM

Its nice to see 2 totally different opinions on here, without it turning into a holy war. Nice Job agmantoo and Gabriel.

bigbluegrass · #15 12/12/12, 10:11 AM

If I had it to do over I would buy older cows and not young ones. Buy some old cows that still have good teeth and that are bred. Buy them at the local sale barn. With a drought and expensive winter feed this is a good time. Get out there and find them and buy them before spring gets close. I would bet most people have sold off their light calves by now. Now they are culling stock. Some have probably already culled some good stock. I would avoid young heifers and cows. The reason: old cows have proven themselves in someones herd. They have good genetics and can survive. If they are bred back, they might still have a calf or two in them. You can usually get them for a bargain, because you are bidding against slaughter prices. Get them from the sale barn. Start looking now. Go to a few sales and get the feel for it or have an order buyer buy for you. But I would get at least 10 right now. By old I mean 6 years or more. Some might still have another 6 years in them, who knows. You can fill in the pieces later.

Buying young stock is fine, but you will pay a premium and they may or may not work out. That is how I got started and I overpaid for heifers and ended up culling them heavily. I just don't have the eye for it like some people. You may or may not want the genetics of the younger stock. Putting and old proven cow on a lush field of fescue - even with old teeth - she will do good. Get a few calves, save the heifers and you have a start. Sell the old cows when they come up open.

As for breeding year round - I don't think it is a problem in southern climates. Farther north where the winters are harder, you have to be careful calving in the middle of winter unless you are going to check them every few hours. It could make for a long winter. Agmantoo has an excellent working model for southern states and it works well for him (he makes some good profits). I don't calve year round, but I would never rule it out. I like a defined calving season, but that is a personal preference more than an economical one.

opportunity · #16 12/12/12, 12:22 PM

To buy a three in one you should have a fairly young calf (about 3-4 months old) not many people sell those at least not around here.
Buying older cows is easier and cheaper then heifers and you will get to learn how to calf before you might have problems (I have had several problems in heifers not all of them but more then cows)
Calfing year round can be a pain in the butt you have more trouble sorting to vaccinate and can't usually do it all at once this is also an added expence as you cant buy multi does vials cheaper and it's not good to keep them round and reuse.(I calf year round wish i didn't trying to get them all at the same time)
With the hay prices here I would buy fewer cows (what my land should support) and less hay (I feed a small round every day or about 800 pounds to 32 head I have no pasture now it's under snow)

thestartupman · #17 12/29/12, 08:28 AM

Here is the update to where I am at on this project. I bought 15 possible 3 in 1's. I say possible, because they where running with 2 different bulls for a month and a half, but have not been checked by a vet. I have them on one of my smaller fields near the house, and they seem to have gotten very comfortable. I plan to introduce them to a single strand hot wire, either my deviding the field they are already in, or by putting a hot wire in front of them as I move them to the next area. Any suggestions would be great. I don't have a real strong area to introduce them to single strand hot wire though. The way I have it planned either way I have suggested will be to give them a lot of area to move away from the hot wire, and then slowly tighten the area down each time and begin to put another hot wire behind them after a couple moves of letting them go back too the older pastures.

CJBegins · #18 12/29/12, 09:26 AM

Are you actually using wire or webbing or rope? If using wire I would tie flags to it so they can easily see it and avoid the wire. Good luck.
When are your cow "due" to calve next and have you purchased more hay yet. The price of hay here in Missouri is rediculous. I found that buying it out of state and shipping it in is cheaper than buying it down the road from me.

thestartupman · #19 12/31/12, 06:20 AM

I will be using both high tensile, and poly wire. I have some hay put up in small square bales, but I will need more.