disbudding- on the fence

[Hannah90]

Hey folks,

My 6 mo old dexter bull calf is starting to push his horns through. Unfortunately I dont have the cash to bring the vet out right now to disbud him. My only other option is a neighbor with the iron... But no anesthetic. That gives me the shivers. Would it be so bad to let him have his horns as my herd sire? Am I crazy to consider this? I need opinions, please.

[SpaceCadet12364]

Keep them. We raise Highlands and they all still have them. They are considered long horn breed.

[CJBegins]

I think it's probably too late to use a hot iron on those horns. That needs to be done before they are a month old. I would probably just keep them.

[Hannah90]

Ugh! Alright, I am down right confused. Man I bought them from said I used the iron when they start coming through... But I'm supposed to do it before they come through? Ill probably keep them then... Maybe put weights on them since he'll be the only one with horns on the farm. For now at least.

[Marshloft]

Been silently listening to the posts on Dexters and highlands.
When, and or if, I ever get some land again. I'll get more serious as to my questions.
But, if you are interested in a horned breed,, why even think about dehorning?
Is their not a pold breed you could choose from?
I'd love the Dexter and Highlands regardless of the horns. But,,, horns they have.
To me thats like buying a flying breed of pigeon, then clipping its wings.
GH

[genebo]

I keep 8-11 horned Dexters here. I'm among them a lot, working the farm. I've never had a problem. They are so gentle.

I like the horns. It's how I tell them apart, by horn shape and size.

[Hannah90]

I was originally attracted to dexters because of their dual purpose on the farm. Having never kept a bull on my farm, I was taking suggestions of other experienced people. they all suggested I dehorn him. Over the last few months I have been mulling the idea of keeping his horns. Everyone around here disbuds. Being inexperienced I went with the advice given until I had time to do my own research. Just looking for advice here. Maybe suggestions on keeping a bull with horns? precautions above and beyond normal bull keeping precautions? I am not so worried about my own safey as I am my other livestock. Ya know?

[Hannah90]

Genebo- I was reading an old thread in this forum. It would seem people either love the horns or they hate horns. Some say it's the worst idea and you'll end up with a gored cow/person in no time, others say it's no big deal. Just one of those things I guess?

[MO_cows]

If you expect to use the animal for beef or sell private via treaty, being as horns come with the territory with that breed, don't worry about burning the buds. A bull with no horns and a bad attitude can still be hazardous to your health. The attitude is much more important than whether or not they have horns.

But if you do decide to do it at some later point, yes it is a very uncomfortable couple of minutes for the animal while the heat is being applied. But they get over it so quick it isn't even funny. They are a lot tougher than we are!

[Miss Kay]

We have dairy cows so we are up close and personal with them everyday so no horns allowed. We burn the buds off before they are a week old. When they are born, the horn cells are on the surface and can barely be felt. Rub the hair where the horns are expected to come out and you will feel the roughness about the size of a nickel. If you burn them early, they have not sent the root down yet and are simply on the surface so it goes quick and easy. Very little discomfort and over it almost that day. If you wait, those cells start going deeper until they reach the sinus cavity. by the time you see horns, it is going to take a lot more to get rid of them and will need to be dug out. If you are going to do it, decide and plan before the calf is even born so you can get it done early while it is still easy on you and the calf.

[Hannah90]

Miss Kay- Thank you! that was the kind of explination I was looking for. I certainly dont want to hurt him. I have a pretty good and respectful "relationship" with him and I dont want to screw it up. He knows to give me my space or I tap him on the nose with a cane. Usually enough to turn him around. I do keep him halter broke for now as it makes my barn set up work easier for now!

[Sparkie]

Usually it's people who have no experience with keeping horned cows who are afraid of them and advise disbudding or dehorning. Those of us with experience keeping horned cows know that they are no more dangerous than cows without horns.

A horned bull will not hurt his cows with his horns. Horned cows will not injure their herdmates with their horns - except for the very rare case of a rogue cow who is mentally unstable.

We had a horned dexter bull for many years and the only thing he ever hurt with his horns was a neighbor's BIG bull who broke into our pasture. He beat the devil out of that bull and sent him home.

As long as a bull isn't a pet (= disrespectful) - or a dairy breed (evil incarnate) - horned or not makes no real difference.

[Hannah90]

Thanks Sparkie. That leads me to another question. I hear a lot of folks talking about dairy breed bulls being the wrost. Why is that? My bull calf and I are going through the boundaires lessons. He's small now, but I keep imagining him as 1000 pounds. As I said before, I wasnt really concerned for my own safety having raised other various intact male animals. I just didnt want him hurting the other cows or the dumb horse in the pasture.

[Dusky Beauty]

Originally Posted by Hannah90

Thanks Sparkie. That leads me to another question. I hear a lot of folks talking about dairy breed bulls being the wrost. Why is that?

I'm novice cattle owner, but I grew up on a lot of farm stories-- several about a certain evil jersey bull.

Now, jersey cows have a reputation for being smart, apparently many bulls apply those smarts all day every day in their corral to plot murder. An average testosterone crazed bull will tear a man up when he finds himself in an enclosure with a man in front of him.
The belief is dairy bulls are smarter, and will PLAN the crime ahead of time-- and figure out an escape plan to boot.

[Hannah90]

Haha! I have heard quite a few stories myself. Interesting. I hear stories of the sweetest jersey cows and and stories of the most menacing of jersey bulls. On my farm I have an old, smart, cranky dexter cow. She refuses to let down her milk without the calf and knows exactly the right time to move away from my hands. On her good days, she's a dream... On her bad days... Well... Let's just say she has taught me a lot.

[goodhors]

A suggestion for the horns until you can get him done is to just keep rasping them down.

We did Prospect Beef calves in 4-H, where the Fair didn't allow horns over an inch long. Since we were in the calves to make money, horn removal cost $100 by the Vet, we just kept those horns trimmed down to nothing. This meant horn work about every 2 weeks.

We put the calf in the grooming chute, stanchion would also work. Just used the hoof rasp to shorten the horns and smooth them up. Rasp is sharp, so usually only a few strokes on each side, were needed to shorten what had grown out. We kept horns tight to the horn ridge on the top of heads.

You can feel horn center getting a bit softer, might see a drop of blood. Time to stop, don't want to bleed the calf if possible. If you do get a drop of blood, a bit of powdered lime on that spot stops bleeding and prevents infection.

This is kind of work intensive, with constant attention to keeping horns shortened. However if you are working with calf anyway, it keeps them socialized and obedient with various reasons for handling him. You should also be picking up his feet almost DAILY, front and hind, so he knows how to stand well, in balance, for hoof trimming. You could run the rasp across his hooves when you do his horns every couple weeks. This will make your life a LOT EASIER whe he needs hoof work done, foot rot from mud, claw trims, rock in his claw. He is TRAINED to be worked with and will be cooperative with his feet if you do YOUR PART with the daily handling.

Husband is a Farrier, who has two WELL-TRAINED cows on his customer list. Cows actually stand and hold feet up better than the customer's horses! Cows like him, very cooperative. He got customers to reduce their feed quantity, start walking them DAILY down the driveway of crushed stone. It is a half mile to the road, get the mail, walk back, leading the cows. Cows have GREATLY improved their body condition from obese, ready to founder, along with greatly enjoying their daily walk!! Owner says the girls like going because they are waiting at the gate every day. Husband said the hoof quality has improved from more exercise, walking on the stones, so hooves look real good. The owner is EXTREMELY happy that his cows have gotten healthier, as well as helping owner lose weight and get more fit! Cows on limited diet, getting walked have lost about 300 pounds each, very shiny and fit. Owner walking cows has lost about 35 pounds, wearing smaller clothes, feeling much better, quit needing certain meds, with almost no other life or diet changes! His Dr. and wife are REALLY happy with the improvements in his health.

While calf is still smaller, you also should teach him to load and unload ON COMMAND into stock trailers. Walk up a ramp or hop in, whatever kind of trailer you have. Feed him inside from a bucket, so he LIKES getting inside. Our calves loaded better than most horses, stood tied to the side of the trailer for hauling to 4-H meetings or weigh-ins. Start young, be consistant, then you just have to load now and again as animal ages to keep his memory remembering how. Life is EASIER with handling and training your bovines! They LOVE consistancy, will be pretty cooperative if they understand what you want. Sure easier to teach things with the 300-500 pound calf, than trying to force a 700 pound animal into anything.

Hope the horn shortening helps you. Sorry, I am with the no-horns folks. Horned cattle would NEVER live here. Same animal could still be chargy, hit you with his head if he has a bad dispostion. No horns means you don't get skewered as well as crushed. Cattle enforcing boundaries with horns, don't care if they poke you or not. Less risky with no horns. ESPECIALLY with a bull because they are going to want to do what their hormones tell them to do! He still has a very thick skull to hit things with, he is designed to be a battering ram to win breeding rights. He has to be managable even if a cow is in heat, which happens with training, better bred animals. Temperment is scored and bred for these days, so most bulls are not nearly as rank to handle as the early 1900s animals. Especially important in beef breeds, where you may need to be working around them on the ground. They culled the bad tempered ones severely. So well-bred bulls are handled and trained, easier to live around now. Beef animals do seem to be more more accepting in the bull dept. than the dairy bulls. Harder culling with beef maybe, or a higher emphasis on good temper than dairy bulls get culled with.

You should get into the habit of ALWAYS carrying some kind of a stick. Those hollow pig sticks are light weight, make noise, come in bright colors to make finding them easy. Other folks like the staff, wooden sticks about 5ft tall. Get SOMETHING for carrying while you walk the cattle fields. Cows see might as being dominant, you can't be backing off or running from the pushy ones. The sticks keep things even, you NEED to have a stick with you at all times on foot. Hang a stick beside each gate, so you have it handy when you go into a field or corral with the cattle. You only use it as needed, but you CAN be prepared.

[Miss Kay]

Horns are a personal choice. We used to raise highlands and would have never took their horns off but then we knew how to be careful with them. Dairy cows are expeced to be de-horned and have less value if they don't. Plus, I simlpy dont want them but think it's fine for those who do.

[Hannah90]

Oh, hey dusky- how is your belmont coming along?

[Dusky Beauty]

Originally Posted by Hannah90

Oh, hey dusky- how is your belmont coming along?

The brat false labored on me on the full moon--- been in standby mode ever since!!

Udder looks fantastic though. She bagged out nice and her teats are elongating... I am very excited to get my hands on her when the milk is all in! I'm not brave enough to put a super sensitive first freshener through colostrum extraction.

[Hannah90]

Haha! I am so not looking forward to that. I'll have goats and a cow going around the same time.

Ok, so I am a real dummy... Colostrum extraction?