Work dog question - Aussie Shepherds?

[RedDirt Cowgirl]

Having to admit we just don't have the situation for an Aussie cattledog, aka Somebody's Body Dog - no one person on the ranch 24/7 like my Dad was for our beloved Daisy (avatar). We are dogless.

When our standard ranch dog was the Aussie Shepherd, the cattle were worked mainly with horses; it was a grand day when you could say "it's a heeler!".

Need a dog sooner than later, I'm wondering how likely a shepherd is to BE a heeler without another dog to show it the way. Now that we're running mostly Charolais (bigger and more agressive than than the old Herefords, sigh...) I'm worried a dog that faces them will get rolled and even drubbed.

Anybody working Aussie Shepherds? Can they stand up to Mean-Momma Cow on their own?

[Dusky Beauty]

I have a pair of aussie shep pyr mixes I took because of the pyr half. The oldest dog (female) is brave to the point of stupidity, and she's got that herding instinct sleeping just below the surface but she's not the most dependable listener, so I'm not going to encourage it. I have no doubt if she tried, she'd fearlessly face down anything.

The young male dog however is very obedient. He is respectful of the animals' "space" and hyper aware. He's got that "look" in his eye that says something in his bones tells him he's supposed to do something with the stock but he doesn't know what.

I'll have to get him on a leash and lead him around the stock to see if I can teach him the commands, but he has a lot of promise, if only I knew how to train him to do it.

I don't think the problem is instinct-- it's conveying to the dog what you want him to do in training I think if you don't have an experienced herd dog around to show them.

Dogs have a lot of savvy, I don't think a young heeler worth his ears is going to let a hoof catch him by the head.

Funny note... I found out not long ago that those short little corgis are bred with such little legs so that they can "heel" cows and be so short that a kicking cow will MISS! LOL

[Judy in IN]

DD has Corgis. She has a male that doesn't attack stock, but gently "pushes" them. I can see the value of a dog like this moving cows to market.

I haven't seen any Aussies that were as "hard" as Heelers. I'm not a fan of Heelers around sheep; they are too rough. BUT, they should do well with Charolais. They need a job.

[Jessilee7]

we've raised aussies, heelers and catahoulas separately for the better part of 25 years. Unless you but an aussie from someone who is breeding towards hard working aussies, I highly doubt you'll just stumble across one thats got the grit youre probably needing. One advantage they have is they will methodically work both ends of a cow. Heading or heeling when needed. If you can find a working aussie, theyre great but most of them have been bred down to agility, frisbee or pet dogs with little drive and grit.
You have experience with heelers so I'll skip them.
Catahoulas can be great. They'll also work both ends and they are TOUGH. I'd consider them a harder dog than the heelers though and at 8-14 mo old, they can try your patience for about a month usually. They'll get overly eager to work, even when you don't want them to and for that month or so if youre not watching them to direct them, they can get overly aggressive with the stock.
I'll also add that aussies are often called velcro dogs. They are worse about being with their human than a heeler. The Cats are more independent and don't require the one on one time all the time that heelers and definately aussies thrive on.

[stockdogtta]

I have working Aussies and will put a cow any place you want..from the front end or from the back end and not get kicked or buried in the ground. Good working bloodlines of Aussies are still out there tho as said above... people are breeding for agility and such a lot nowadays....so gotta do research on parents bloodline. One thing tho, just because a pup is from good working parents doesnt guarantee a good working pup...in any breed.I've had cattledogs and BCs but Aussies in my breed of choice for moving any type of livestock.

[wendle]

I agree with stockdogtta, there are some very nice working Aussies out there. He has some top dogs himself, I've seen them work. Stay away from show lines, agility, etc. some of those just plain won't work, or are too weak to be any good. Watch the parents work! Find a good breeder who can help you get your pup started. A better trained dog early on is truly an asset to your livestock operation.

[cowbelle]

Whether a dog is a "header" or a "heeler" is instinctive. They are usually one or the other, and no amount of watching or encouraging will make one take the end they don't naturally want. When you get one that will take both ends, it is a welcome bonus. For those of you wanting cow working dogs, you might be interested in a new CD available. Roy Cox is an incredible trainer, from Australia, but has been here for over 30 yrs. He gives clinics, and now has a training CD. I've known him for over 20 yrs. and can say that he's magic with dogs. It's available through his new website, Roy Cox Canine Connection. I will say that trying to make working dogs out of mixed breeds that aren't herding breeds, can be an exercise in frustration. If they don't have the correct instincts to start with, you can't really train them in. There is also a magazine, Stockdog Journal, that has lots of articles on training working dogs. I published it for five yrs, and now have passed it on to another gal, Deb Meier. There's nothing more exciting than to see a good dog bring the herd in to the corral for you, or put a recalcitrant cow wherever you want her. But just as with the LGDs, the herding dogs need a lot of training to be the helper you want. It doesn't happen without guidance, even with the right instincts.

[RedDirt Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by Jessilee7

...........I'll also add that aussies are often called velcro dogs. They are worse about being with their human than a heeler. The Cats are more independent and don't require the one on one time all the time that heelers and definately aussies thrive on.

Well, that's definitely new info to me - I always thought heelers were the absolute in velcro dogs, and that's just the issue. I grew up with Aussies and thought they were more independent, but maybe that was because there were just more folks around all the time. They seemed to stick to the place, and frankly, they never got to go for rides as a rule, in theory so they wouldn't turn "traveler".

And they seemed pretty intent in getting next to any kiddo that came along, shake hands, play play, where my heeler was a bit aloof with others, but the definition of velcro dog. Play just wasn't her job, if it wasn't serious business you must be singing in the head and she figured you didn't really know as much as she did. It took a while after my dad passed before she really looked to me for direction.

Big problem was getting her to "hold down the fort" alone, it was so wrong in her mind not to have me in sight that she just couldn't seem to help herself; that's where I thought Aussies would be a better choice. Is it really the reverse?

[oregon woodsmok]

My experience with Australian Shepherds is that they are drovers and not heelers. If you want a dog that is a heeler, you will be happier with a breed that was developed to be a heeler.

The Australian Shepherds around here work a lot of cattle, but it is droving work. They will get in and push, but that is not their primary instinct. Of the two sizes of Australian Shepherds, the little guys (not the minis) are used for cattle and the big ones are on horse farms, where they are liked because they do not bite the stock.

I've got an Australian Shepherd and he is never more than 6 inches away from me while we are inside the house and he's never out of eyesight when outdoors and he is always watching to see where I am so I can't walk off and leave him, or even worse worry, so he doesn't miss a flick of my fingers as I give a command. Not exactly independent.

Blue heelers are hard dogs and Australian Shepherds are not. There is quite a difference. Aussies will work, but they tend to be sensitive and aren't generally knotheads like heelers can be.

There is a stock dog in Central Oregon. I see a lot of them at places like the auction and feed lot. I don't think they even have a name. They look like there is some kelpie in there somewhere. They will get in there and tangle with a cow that doesn't want to go where she has been directed.

[TedH71]

I can't stand Aussies due to their long hair and the fact most of them can't herd. My wife's family has lots of them. Heelers aka Australian Cattle dogs are quite good as long as they're not from the original imports who were crossed with dingos and are basically worthless. My breeds of choice and preferences are the catahoulas and blackmouth curs. Problem is the general rule is to have three dogs not one to work cattle. You could also consider the blue lacy which is a smaller breed of cur dogs. I also know that Australia has another herding dog breed called the kelpie. There are some in the U.S. but some of them come from show bloodlines and tend to be red in color.

[wendle]

Not sure if any aussies are listed here, but maybe you can find some leads. Western Cattledog Association - Home

[stockdogtta]

Here is a page you mite look for an Aussie pup.

Working Aussie Source Litter Announcements

[francismilker]

I just had to put down our 18 year old Austrailian Shepherd mama dog due to health issues associated with her age. Penny was an awesome working dog as well as family dog and rarely do the two traits collide imho. While I don't feel I've ever had an operation that warranted a cow dog, she got me out of lots of pickles coming from nowhere to cut a cow off or put one in the trailer that refused to budge. She was most especially good at moving show calves that were sitting on their haunches.


She will be missed by all of us.

[arnie]

Find a pup from working parents an aussie ..not from show dog lines .. will ,ikly work out there are southern blackmouth cur dogs as well as some lines of cataula curs . If you keep them in a warm dog house and feed them there in the barn or at tbe cattle pens a feww minits a day to bond with you and as you encourage them in there training and teaching yard manners .being around cattle while theyare worked there instincs should shine through when raiseing a pup patients and time is the key pushing a pup expecting it to perform like a 3 year old rarly works but jaming them into a kennel or tieing them up till a year old won't work ither .good dogs are hard to find because it takes some work and time to make one .starting with a pup from working lines is the main step

[RedDirt Cowgirl]

Oregon, I think you've hit the spot with my hesitation to get another heeler. For some unknown reason, I've had the feeling that red ones (again, like our Daisy, RIP), were less hard than the grey merles. They look at me with cold eyes, we had a local family breeding them for "truck dogs".

Haven’t visited ranchers in Oregon, but I wonder if their stockdog isn't part McNab. Nice dogs, but like the border collies, too avid for me. Even the busy ones seem to have some kind of OCD tic. (Don't have a stick big enough to beat off all the offers to me of border collies - those "gentlemen ranchers" with whole kennels of them doing performance trials.) Neighbors have them, but they have constant work, my own needs are light and sporadic.

Shelties are too pricey for folks to get into around here, I see mini ones as pets in town always leashed up tight. Only saw one Catahoula brought to the ranch for a roundup, it was a crazy-eyed bit of hell-on-wheels. Very houndy, used like a scrambler to break one out of a bunch for the border collies to take over. High country seasonal grazers are getting into them - no more "wild cows" hiding out, that's for sure.

TedH71, didn't want to whine about the Aussie coat, but it's too much for our climate, they need to get a buzz cut at least twice from Springtime on, & the daily ear operation to pull ticks! Thinking back in time again too, the running name for our Aussies was Shadow. There's that velcro thing I just wasn't hip to. Before now that is, so all you guys have saved an Aussie for a better life, and probably myself too.

Wendle, the Western Cattledog Assn. looks like a great resource - grateful to know about that one for sure!

Stockdogtta, you make my tongue hang out for an Aussie, especially with your advice on finding a good one, but the velcro-dog issue is beyond me at this point. If I can ever manage to get my feet underneath me again, they sound like the perfect dog for us, just like the old days.

Francismilker, you make my eyes water thinking about the pickles our last Shadow kept me from - undying love in a dog’s body. Sorry to hear you lost such a good one.

Cowbelle, I really appreciate your sharing so much good stuff (Roy Cox!) - I'm back to my first "want" - a female red (not merle) heeler. Thought Kismet would bring me a girl who "didn't want to work" after an hour or two, that's about all I ever need, not a whole day of droving. Felt like I would be wasting a good dog to take a pup that might have gone to a bigger operation, not just keeping me from getting stepped on day to day. Two years waiting tho, & nothing's come to hand. Our heeler was a very happy camper, I'm just going to have to come up to snuff. Decided to let Winter pass before I pick a dog in Spring, hopefully one that’s not as big a knothead as I am. Would love to hear more work dog talk. How to pick a pup is my next course of study.