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  #1  
Old 10/26/12, 09:40 AM
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A2/A2 milk

Hey folks,

I have bee doing some serious research into the A2 vs A1 milk controvery. seems to be a lot of research tp prove A1 milk is is making people unhealthy vs. A2 milk making sick people better. Anyone have any thoughts. I am looking into getting a Jersey cow fpr milking and possibly beef production. Probably going to look for a proven A2 cow. Is it worth the search and possibly higher price???

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  #2  
Old 10/26/12, 09:46 AM
Dariy Calf Raiser
 
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seems to be a lot of research tp prove A1 milk is is making people unhealthy


I SURE WOULD LIKE TO SEE A LINK TO THAT

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  #3  
Old 10/26/12, 09:54 AM
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Mercola advocates raw milk, discusses A1 A2 beta casein in connection with autism, diabetes, heart disease, etc. | The Bovine

I am not saying i am convinced by this research as I have not done enough to drawn my own conclusions. A simple google search returns a whole slew of links and websites talking about the same thing. The main guy on this seems to be Dr. Mercola author of "devil in the milk." Just wondering what folks here think or know.
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  #4  
Old 10/26/12, 10:11 AM
 
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I know a lot of Dexter breeders are testing for this and place a great deal of value on their A2/A2 cattle.

Genebo is sure to have some valuable comments on this topic!

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  #5  
Old 10/26/12, 10:12 AM
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I got into A2 milk research a couple of years ago. Though I think it's a valid point of research, I think there are many other things of much more serious consequences to our health than A1 milk. All the A2 milk in the world isn't going to fix Cheerios, McD's or soda damage to your health. It would seem simplier to just eliminate most milk from your diet.

It isn't easy to find an A2 cow. If the seller knows about A2- the price just doubled, though she will give no more milk than before. If you have to have a cow tested, it will take a while to get the results back and she could be sold in the meantime. But you are out the test $.

"Devil in the Milk" was written by Keith Woodford. You might do a search on A2 in this forum as we've had several discussion on this topic. I'm not sure if they are still there, but they should be. The book was written in 2007. Dr. Woodford claimed that NZ was 'quietly' going to all A2 milk so they could take over the market by the time his research was more accepted. I know it can take years to get a herd of cows genetics straightened out, but if this were absolutely true, I'd think we would be hearing more about it by now. If it were what he said it was, they would have removed all the stops to get only A2 cows in their herds. With AI & implantation, I'd think in 5 years alone, you could replace most of your herd or breed your own A2s.

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  #6  
Old 10/26/12, 10:22 AM
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Oh, my mistake. I must have misread that Mercola wrote the book. I dont know. The research seems convincing, though I agree with you that this magic milk wont heal the McDonalds, soda, sugar damage. I am in contact with a Jersey farm near me. they do not test for the gene, but would be willing to let me test before buying at an already predetermined price. So maybe I will get lucky. I have found a bull in virginia that is A2/A2. Maybe if I can find an A2/A2 cow I can do my own bloodline perfecting personally, I think even if the A1 milk IS hurting more than helping people the dairy business would never change out their holsteins. Theyve gotten those suckers too proficient at being milk producing machines.

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  #7  
Old 10/26/12, 10:56 AM
 
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We've now tested our entire Dexter herd for the A2 genetics. We have around 15 of them out of a herd of 39 or so, including several bull calves from this year. It's a simple process of pulling tail hairs and sending them in. We used UC Davis, and the results are usually back within 5 days. It costs $25.00

As Genebo will chime in, why not err on the safe side with respect to the A1-A2 findings? If you're going to the effort to have your own milk cow, you are already going to great lengths to be aware of your food and where it comes from.

On the Dexter site Dexter Cattle For Sale Dexter Cattle Breeder there is a list of AI bulls, some of them have been tested for the A2/A2 protein. I'm sure there are Jersey AI bulls available that have also been tested and available.

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  #8  
Old 10/26/12, 10:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Callieslamb View Post
It isn't easy to find an A2 cow. If the seller knows about A2- the price just doubled, though she will give no more milk than before. If you have to have a cow tested, it will take a while to get the results back and she could be sold in the meantime. But you are out the test $.
Callieslamb, I've sent tail hair from VA to UC Davis in California and usually get results by email in less than a week.

Genebo maintains a list of tested A2/A2 Dexters; I bet he can post a link to it.

Hannah90, I have an A2/A2 bull and one A2/A2 cow, both Dexters. Most of mine have tested A1/A2. Haven't doubled any prices!
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  #9  
Old 10/26/12, 11:14 AM
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This all started for me this morning when I was looking into my dexter cow's bloodlines. Ik didnt know there was a movement to preserve the original lines from the lines the english introduced. I found out my cow is from the english lines on both sides. I was actually looking to find which dexter lines are better for milk. I like my cow's milk, but it wasnt exactly the product I was hoping for. Which is why I am looking to switch to Jersey for milk instead of going down a wild goose chase for better milking Dexter lines. I am going out on a limb and saying Annabelle, my cow has A/2 milk. My only reasoning at this educated guess is because my boyfriend is lactose intolerant, and has no symptoms when he drinks her milk. I could be wrong. could just be the difference in raw vs pasturized.

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Old 10/26/12, 11:22 AM
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Hanna90,
I think you've got a pretty good handle on things. Testing the cow before purchase is the way to go. I would jump on that deal!

Processed milk goes through a lot of changes, killing the good bacteria along with the bad. Raw milk may be enough for Your BF. I know that the semen companies are testing all of their bulls, and going towards A2A2.

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  #11  
Old 10/26/12, 11:27 AM
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Thanks Judy. When I bought Annabelle, all I was concerned with was getting a calm cow. I thought Dexter was the answer for me, but this particular cow doesnt have the milk I want. I wish I had doned more research before buying her. Good cow. good first milk cow experience... Just cant get enough cream to make the other products I was wanting. If I could find a Guernsey I would be extatic, but those are hard to find in Iowa!

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  #12  
Old 10/26/12, 12:33 PM
 
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Hannah,

Is this your cow's first lactation? It generally increases with subsequent lactations for several years. Don't give up on the Dexters yet.

There really is no way to tell the A2 status without the test. We have a couple of VERY old cows about as close as you can get to the Woodmagic lines that are A1/A1. All it takes for an A2/A2 cow bred to one A1/A2 bull to get a A1/A2 calf. Two A1/A2 parents can make a A2/A2 calf. Unless you're breeding two A1/A1, or two A2/A2 together which would produce obligate offspring, you must test each calf.

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  #13  
Old 10/26/12, 12:37 PM
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No, Annabelle is 12 years old. I still want to keep dexters around as I like the general make up of the breed. I intend to keep her son as a breeding bull. I would like to do some experimenting with a dexter jersey cross. I want o keep looking into the different genes to see if I can find a dexter with milk more along the lines of what I am looking for. In the mean time, I am taking a short cut with the jersey route.

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  #14  
Old 10/26/12, 02:40 PM
Dariy Calf Raiser
 
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wait a second you said
seems to be a lot of research tp prove A1 milk is is making people unhealthy

but your LINK says



So the theory goes that by drinking milk from A1 cows, which are the predominant cows used for dairy products in the United States, you’re exposed to BCM-7, which has been linked to:


there is lots of difference in reasearch and a theory

yes you can google anything and get 10 different answers on both side why I want a link

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Old 10/26/12, 03:34 PM
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So the theory goes that by drinking milk from A1 cows, which are the predominant cows used for dairy products in the United States, you’re exposed to BCM-7, which has been linked to:

Neurological impairment, including autistic and schizophrenic changes
Type 1 diabetes
An impaired immune response
Autoimmune disease
Heart disease…”

I'm not entirely sure what other links you're looking for. This is an example of the information I was looking at today. I never said anything about it being PROVEN.

http://keithwoodford.files.wordpress...011-final1.pdf

I'm not entirely sure what is it you're looking for here. Mind you, I never said anything about any of this being proven. As of right now, there is no absolute science to prove that A1 milk is causing any health problems. However, there is serious speculation that it is a link to these health problems developing in humans. Maybe there is no proof because no one has cared to pay anyone to do the real science work required to prove it. Or, maybe there is no real scientific proof because it bull huckey. I don't know. I am not about to write a college level research paper on it. Which is why I came here asking for opinions. Yours is pretty clear. I have not fully developed mine.

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  #16  
Old 10/26/12, 06:11 PM
Dariy Calf Raiser
 
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I have bee doing some serious research into the A2 vs A1 milk controvery. seems to be a lot of research tp prove A1 milk is is making people unhealthy vs. A2 milk making sick people better.

sure looks like I read the word PROVE ..


MIGHT NOT BE WHAT YOU WANTED TO SAY BUT THAT IS WHAT I READ

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  #17  
Old 10/26/12, 06:17 PM
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Ok. I made a mistake. I meant to say research TRYING to prove. You're missing the entire point. I came here asking for other folk's opinions and thoughts on the matter. If you do not agree, please don't take it out on me. I thought this was a forum for folks to learn and others to help. yikes.

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  #18  
Old 10/26/12, 06:21 PM
 
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It is interesting. I think it's worth the effort to do some more research on it to decide if you want to pay more for a cow. If we were going to milk a cow again I certainly would look into it more. We have several dexters in with our beef herds, guess I would just get them tested to start out with.

Sort of ot but wondering why there seems to be some mild hostility in this thread about this?

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Old 10/26/12, 06:30 PM
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Sparkie,

I don't know. :-/ Anyway, I have contacted a few jersey dairies today and all said they do not test their cows, but I am welcome to before purchasing. I wish I could find a Guernsey because from what I read they are all A2. I suppose if it werent an issue, or there was not difference in the two types there would be no research at all. I think, as someone said in this thread already, it may be best to err on the side of saftey since the cow I am after will be the family milk cow. It just all kinda goes along with my sustainable farm approach. I am not about to jump on the band wagon and start honking the A2 milk horn. I honk enough horns for GMO foods, CAFOs and the over use of antibiotics in animals. I will let someone else carry this flag and just make the best decision for my family. Cheers all, and thanks for the input! Happy Weekend!

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  #20  
Old 10/26/12, 07:43 PM
 
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Milk has always been one of my favorite foods, raw, pasteurized, homogenized, white, chocolate, buttermilk, I drink a lot of it. I'm on the wrong side of 70 and I can't tell that it's harmed me any.

I've always thought that if a researcher is given money he/she will somehow, no matter how convoluted the logic, reach the conclusion the money giver wants.

I liken this to the, so called, "expert witnesses" in court trials. Their expert opinion coincides with whatever the prosecution/defense needs for them to say.

Methinks this this whole A2 business is someone is pushing an agenda, and the whole thing is much ado about very little or nothing at all

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  #21  
Old 10/27/12, 09:47 AM
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I think the problem with this kind of research is that different people with different bodies react in different ways to different variables. My entire family doesn't have any of the health problems there listed as the BCM-7 being linked to. And we are from a line of dairy men. I wish I knew more about the way to conduct real research. Did they only use processed A1 milk in their tests? Most big dairies are advocates of processed milk not raw. Big dairies is where most of the research took place, right? Where were their people test subjects found? So many different issues come into play in diet and research that I wonder how they can ever get to the real bottom of anything. My son is a researcher and it's his pet peeve. People publish tests that don't follow any kind of scientific protocol and it's believed because it's a test...and it proves something. I just don't know enough about it to get to the bottom of the research. There are those that think the testing is flawed...but some think raw milk being beneficial is also flawed test results. See?

If I could find an A2 cow, I'd buy it over an A1 cow...but if they thought they were going to charge me double because she's A2, I'd opt for the A1 version. Just me.

5 days can make or break a deal when you've found a nice jersey around here. They get snapped up fast.

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Old 10/27/12, 10:18 AM
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Callieslamb,

I think you have a great point. All the dairies I contacted yesterday all quoted me prices over two thousand dollars.. umm... I'll be honest, I cannot afford that price tag. I checked some local listings and there seems to be Jerseys in the area from private owners who are asking a much more reasonable price. Hopefully I can find someone in the spring. Ya know, probably any milk given by a personal family cow is going to be better than the stuff from the store.

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Old 10/27/12, 02:07 PM
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It's too bad that we can't KNOW. Or maybe I should say, that I don't have enough confidence in the research to say "Yes, I believe this". A "Link" to an illness means what? People with this illness have this in common? And we'll never know what people are genetically predisposed to certain ills either. We looked at so many things that it was exhausting. This is better than that, don't live without this berry, don't use this and this...some people even keep track of ingredient in shampoo that have been linked to cancer and alzheimers. I can't keep up with it all. In the end, we decided to grow as much as we can for ourselves and cut ourselves a break on the rest. If we eliminate as many chemicals as we can - it's about as good as my family can get.

Good luck finding a cow that's just right for you.

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Old 10/27/12, 10:04 PM
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The research on A2 milk was not started to prove or disprove anything about A2 vs. A1 beta casein. In fact, when the research was started, nobody even knew A1 beta casein even existed.

It started when tribesmen from the surrounding island near New Zealand migrated to the mainland. Diabetes was almost unknown on the islands, but began occurring in the tribesmen on the mainland at an alarming rate.

The research was ordered to discover the cause of the cases of diabetes. I don't know how long it took to make the connection, but somehow they found that it seemed to be the mainland milk which was involved.

There were cattle on the islands. Had been for a very long time. The islanders drank milk from their cows. Yet almost no diabetes.

It was found that the milk from the island cows was different from the mainland milk. The mainland milk had a different form of beta casein in it. This form of beta casein was previously unknown and couldn't be found in any other mammal's milk. It was unique to cattle. It was given the name A1, with the form found in all other mammals named A2.

It was assumed that A1 beta casein must have been a mutation that occurred in a cow, probably a dairy cow of really good production. By reproducing her, they would have spread the mutation.

She was a Bos Taurus, a European bovine. Bos Indicus cattle for the most part, missed getting the mutation that causes A1 beta casein. The island cattle were Bos Indicus, but had been isolated from contact with mainland cattle, so they didn't get the A1 mutation.

From here, the research gets technical, delving into how the A1 beta casein does it's work. This is the source of a lot of controversy. Others have done research to attempt to discredit the conclusions about how it works.

The original research was done at the behest of the government of New Zealand, on behalf of it's citizens. The rebuttal research was spurred by the mainland dairy industry, to defend the reputation of their dairies.

For the most part, the entire dairy industry in New Zealand has quietly capitulated and converted to all A2/A2 herds, producing milk that is free of any A1 beta casein. The last report I read said that the conversion is practically complete.

Australia is not too far behind.

An attempt was made to do the same here in the USA. A single dairy was converted to producing pure A2 milk. Sales and public acceptance were less than expected. The Dairy continues to produce A2 dairy products and distribute them exclusively through Hy-Vee stores.

We were able to convince the A2 Corporation to let us use their DNA test for determining whether a bovine has the genetics to produce A1 or A2 beta casein or a mix of the two, for private owners. No dairies can use the test we use. The hope here is that once people can identify their family cows and switch to A2 milk for their families, we will create a ground swell and a demand for A2 milk, so the commercial dairies will be obliged to follow suit.

One of these days, all the milk sold in America will be free of A1 beta casein. I can't wait for the day.

If it saves just one child from living a life with type 1 diabetes, I will be happy.

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Old 10/27/12, 10:10 PM
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This is interesting information. Thank you for your knowledge. Hey, do you know what dairy's name is selling the A/2 to hy-vee stores? I shop there every week. Probably wont buy milk again, having my own. Just curious. Interesting how things can change so quickly.

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Old 10/28/12, 12:28 AM
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Could this all be a scam by the company to get you to just use their cows/bulls?? Kind of fishy since before this time milk was mainly determined by percentage of butter fat. Just my two cents...

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Old 10/28/12, 05:12 PM
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Could this all be a scam by the company to get you to just use their cows/bulls?? Kind of fishy since before this time milk was mainly determined by percentage of butter fat. Just my two cents...
I rather doubt that. Select Sires and other semen companies all have A2A2 bulls available. I can see where the Holstein breeders would be unhappy with the info. I see a lot of Guernsey/Holstein cross calves all of a sudden around here. I think they are after the A2A2 gene from the Guernseys.
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Old 10/28/12, 06:29 PM
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I don't see how the story about the island affects Type 1 diabetes...which is what A1 milk is supposed to be linked to. Did the post listing the diseases mean Type 2 diabetes? Type 1 is the type you are born with and quite different than Type 2 diabetes that you develop over your lifetime. Did they study the fact that the milk was the only difference in their diets? Or were their other differences?

Hankshaw: - I don't think it's a scam to get people to use their bulls. AI companies have both types of bulls. I had to talk my AI guy into looking up which of their bulls were A2.

I also don't think it's a shoe-in that every Guernsey is A2/A2. Most are but not all if I remember correctly.

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Old 10/28/12, 06:42 PM
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In my lifetime, coffee, butter, beef, red wine and numerous other foods were first "proven" to kill you and then later "proven" to be healthy. Call me skeptical, but I won't test my current cows or any bought in the future. Any raw milk from a healthy well cared for cow has to be healthier than anything factory processed.

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Old 10/28/12, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Callieslamb View Post
I don't see how the story about the island affects Type 1 diabetes...which is what A1 milk is supposed to be linked to. Did the post listing the diseases mean Type 2 diabetes? Type 1 is the type you are born with and quite different than Type 2 diabetes that you develop over your lifetime. Did they study the fact that the milk was the only difference in their diets? Or were their other differences?

Hankshaw: - I don't think it's a scam to get people to use their bulls. AI companies have both types of bulls. I had to talk my AI guy into looking up which of their bulls were A2.

I also don't think it's a shoe-in that every Guernsey is A2/A2. Most are but not all if I remember correctly.
You aren't actually born with type 1. Even before the A1/A2 information started coming out there was suspicion among some researchers that milk was contributing to type 1 diabetes via an auto-immune reaction to certain milk proteins getting into the bloodstream via the gut.
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