Beware the Breed Assocation Literature

[Awnry Abe]

Right when I was done with step #1 of the grand master homesteading plan (purchase land), I went straight into step #2 (buy cattle). As is often the case with seriously flawed plans, learning ensues. As a beef cattle nube, I'll leave this bit of learning lesson for all of the other nubes.

When I was shopping for my niche in life, I focused heavily on a particular breed (I'll call it breed Z. Because I have offended many on other forums lately, I'll not add to the drama here by naming that breed here.). Because this is not your average breed of cattle, neighborly knowledge is next to non-existant. I had to depend on the internet to gain info on breed Z. All tribal knowledge I found of actual owner's of breed Z had the same buzzwords, same tone, same phrases, same claims, etc. They were all singing from the same hymnal:

-Gentle, Docile, easy to handle (other cattle are unruly and will run you into the turf)
-Excellent foragers (all other cattle only eat green grass)
-High meat yield (other cattle are all bone, fat, and gut).
-Heat and cold tolerant (other cattle can't handle your extreme midwest weather).
-etc (I've obviously embellished the implications of their claims).

As it turns out, when I found the breed Z associtions web site, all of the Breed Z spin I had found was echoed there. (probably echoed *from* there). I even saw youtube videos of Breed Z in action, eating weeds. As a first-timer with weed in sight, I thought "That's the breed for me!".

So the long journey to collect specimen begins. Ultimately what saved my bacon is that you can not find one of these freaks of the cattle world to save your life. And the breeders that do have them are very proud($$) of them. I did manage to drive about 2.5 hours to buy 2.5 of them.

With my 2.5 head, and 200 acres to choose from, I quickly realized that my pasture was going to get out of control without more help. So I just chucked in the "specialty" towel and bought a bunch of muts. Some really affordable, gentle, docile, weed eating, tasty, etc. muts. Everything I desired in the specialty breed was waiting for me in the multitude of farms surrounding me.

While I do see the merits of specialty breed specialization, I would not recommend that route unless it is the primary component of your plan (i.e. selling expensive cows to rubes like me). For me, breed specialization was not even a secondary part of the plan. But I bought into the propaganda and elevated the breed's claimed attributes over my goals. I also under-estimated my skills & the over-estimated the difficulty of handling cattle. (I'm not saying I am good and that cattle are easy. I am just talking nube-to-nube here).

The 2.5 head are 4 head now. I actually don't regret having them. They are pretty cool looking. And in March '13 I get to see what one looks like crossed with a hereford. I just wish I hadn't wasted valuable time seeking them out. Doing so cost me one generation. And as my herd grows to capacity, they will need to be the first to go, because the sale barn isn't friendly to them nor their likely freaky offspring. On top of it all, I have good evidence that the 4 head are cattle racists. Not that the other cows care.

[Narshalla]

Okay, I have to know.

What on Earth do you mean by "cattle racists"?

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Narshalla

Okay, I have to know.

What on Earth do you mean by "cattle racists"?

Guessing they only like their own kind

[Ness]

Originally Posted by CrownRanch

... I would not recommend that route unless it is the primary component of your plan (i.e. selling expensive cows to rubes like me). ...

I really think you hit the nail right on the head with this one!!

There are tons of speciality breeds, of cows, of chickens, of sheep, etc. and there is absolutely no reason for it past the vanity of their breeders when those same people put their own ego before the health of the creatures they create. I love the people importing all these great "rare" breeds that are a dime a dozen in their home countries and rare here because they are unsuited to our environment .

If you want to specialize in a breed that's just fine, but you've got to put form way above function (actually I just wrote a blog post on that last week...) and may people don't. They go for the wacky colours or the poofy hair with no understanding of the wider ramifications to the breed.

We've got "specialized" breed of cattle, but which I mean, they are is a heritage breed that's been bred for many generations to do well on grass & be highly suited to our region. One is a cross-bred "mutt" done by the 3rd gen of the 5th gen cattle farm we bought her from, and I consider her as valuable as our "purebred" cow.

I can't even count the number of people I've tried to discourage from mini-cows. Not that they don't have their place, but that place is not what most people want to use them for.

You can't eat cute.

[pancho]

You are describing what happens to most people who decide to raise cattle.
Of course the people selling the special cattle will tell you they are the only breed to have and all others are just culls. These special cattle sell for quite a bit more than normal cattle, that is until you try to sell yours. Then you have to find someone like yourself to buy them.

There will be some people who raise these speial cattle that will disagree and have web sites proving them right. Basically all cattle taste just about the same when raised and fed the same. You don't eat the hair so any special colors are just to look at.

[oregon woodsmok]

They all look the same once the hide is off.

There is some benefit to raising black hided cattle. As long as the hide is black, they get the higher Angus prices. Don't have to have any Angus in them, just have to be black.

I always wonder what the certified Angus program does about Red Angus, which are purebred Angus but not black.

Fancy purebreds are for people who want to show and expect to sell fancy purebreds. I like purebreds and I'm glad that somebody is raising them, or I couldn't buy the particular crossbreds that I prefer.

I am fully aware that the people who are trying to sell me something are only going to tell me good things about whatever it is that they are trying to sell me.

[blaineiac]

This is no different than the worm scam, and large black hogs. The only market is to other breeders. There is no actual product that will sell at the inflated price. In the worm scam, they would sell you the breeder worms with a guaranteed buy back price. These buy back worms go on to another grower to start their own business. There is no actual consumer. It is a pyramid scheme with a product, but only works until the newbies run out. Thumbs up to anyone who gets in early enough to actually make money selling to "future breeders". But everyone else had better be very good at marketing to create their own market, or else they're going to get stuck holding a product that will sell for less than market price.

[MO_cows]

I don't think you should feel like a "rube". Every breed - no matter how mainstream or how obscure, has its devotees. They love their breed and they want to make you love them, too. Some people only want purebred cattle, just like some people only want purebred dogs, horses, etc. I have even heard of people who will actually pay money for a cat!

Those small breeders of specialty breeds have more cost per animal. They aren't necessarily ripping you off, they just don't have the numbers to spread their costs between like someone with 200 mother cows does. You can register an Angus for 6 bucks because of their volume. Some of the smaller breeds might pay $100 per head, even more if there is genetic testing involved. Then divide your land cost between 20 head instead of 200, etc.

If the literature and the testamonials seem too good to be true, and if it is all flowery verbiage and not any test results, hard data, etc., then you might want to think about it some more.

But don't automatically write off an obscure breed. Genetic diversity is valuable and should be preserved.

I gotta argue with Pancho just a little. I believe there IS a taste differential but not so much individual breeds as breed origins. The British breeds have a milder flavor in general, unfortunately some individuals to the point of blandness. The continental breeds have a stronger, "beefier" flavor. (Never had a known bos indicus sample)

The age, the feedstuff and other factors come into play, but as far as general flavor profile, irregardless of fat/marbling, I have found this to be true. Pure breeds I have consumed include Angus, Lowline, Hereford, Belgian Blue, Blonde d'Aquitaine, Tarentaise and Corriente. We have eaten quarters, sides, up to whole beeves of some of these breeds.

[opportunity]

Originally Posted by Ness

I really think you hit the nail right on the head with this one!!

There are tons of speciality breeds, of cows, of chickens, of sheep, etc. and there is absolutely no reason for it past the vanity of their breeders when those same people put their own ego before the health of the creatures they create. I love the people importing all these great "rare" breeds that are a dime a dozen in their home countries and rare here because they are unsuited to our environment .

If you want to specialize in a breed that's just fine, but you've got to put form way above function (actually I just wrote a blog post on that last week...) and may people don't. They go for the wacky colours or the poofy hair with no understanding of the wider ramifications to the breed.

We've got "specialized" breed of cattle, but which I mean, they are is a heritage breed that's been bred for many generations to do well on grass & be highly suited to our region. One is a cross-bred "mutt" done by the 3rd gen of the 5th gen cattle farm we bought her from, and I consider her as valuable as our "purebred" cow.

I can't even count the number of people I've tried to discourage from mini-cows. Not that they don't have their place, but that place is not what most people want to use them for.

You can't eat cute.

Mini cows can be great I used to have them on a mini farm but they didn't come with me to the big farm to much chance to breed to big bulls. We butchered the steers and sold them as food and sold or kept heifers was a profitable venture.

[MO_cows]

Originally Posted by oregon woodsmok

They all look the same once the hide is off.

There is some benefit to raising black hided cattle. As long as the hide is black, they get the higher Angus prices. Don't have to have any Angus in them, just have to be black.

I always wonder what the certified Angus program does about Red Angus, which are purebred Angus but not black.
Fancy purebreds are for people who want to show and expect to sell fancy purebreds. I like purebreds and I'm glad that somebody is raising them, or I couldn't buy the particular crossbreds that I prefer.

I am fully aware that the people who are trying to sell me something are only going to tell me good things about whatever it is that they are trying to sell me.

Red Angus has their own beef program. Sterling beef? Something like that, look at the assn web site.

Back when CAB first got started, if an animal was black-hided it WAS majority Angus bred. The program caught on, but when other breeds starting turning their cattle black, nobody bothered to changed the guidelines. So any black animal that meets the quality standards, Angus gets the credit for it when it might not contain any Angus at all. And the general public has not a clue.

[tinknal]

I trust the OP knows better than to fall for the alpaca scam -------------

[Awnry Abe]

Originally Posted by tinknal

I trust the OP knows better than to fall for the alpaca scam -------------

No, I didn't, but no I haven't. Thanks for raising the flag!

[Awnry Abe]

Originally Posted by Narshalla

Okay, I have to know.

What on Earth do you mean by "cattle racists"?

It probably had nothing to do with their breed--and more so to do with when the rest of the herd showed up. They clustered together and avoided the rest of the herd. We used to joke about it. Actually, we were never really sure who was doing the avoiding.

[Marshloft]

Originally Posted by tinknal

I trust the OP knows better than to fall for the alpaca scam -------------

Good point,,, my now ex-wife and I almost got sucked into the alpacas.
But the more I checked out who they were selling to,, well,, it was folks like me. And I know my own ability to market an sell,,, I suck at it
Walked away from it..
GH

[rancher1913]

what about the "pure bred and papered" trap. had one guy I know bought 20 acre's and rented another 150 so he promptly bought a bunch of papered cows to stock his new ranch at way inflated prices. tried my dangest to talk him into "muts" as discused above because he had no market for papered cows only the meat market and they won't pay more just because the calf has papers. he was going to set the registered cow business on fire and make a killing or so he claimed. even after explaining that registered cows were a rich mans hobby as they could hob knob and write all the losses off, he was sure it would work because he had the breeders assurances of a high return on his calf's. long story short several of his best cows are now in my herd and he's bankrupt. no I did not take advantage of him, he pleaded with me to buy the cows so they would not go to slaughter like the rest. he stops by and says hi to them every now and again.

[oregon woodsmok]

You can make good money with registered cattle, but it is a completely different business than raising beef, and it is a lot more work and expense.

But I do know several people who do very well with registered cattle. In a couple of different purebred markets, because there are different ways to make money with registered cattle.

One thing you always have to look at is: who is going to buy from you? What does the buyer want? How many buyers are out there? How much do they pay? How many marketing alternatives do you have?

[FEF]

Originally Posted by CrownRanch

Right when I was done with step #1 of the grand master homesteading plan (purchase land), I went straight into step #2 (buy cattle). As is often the case with seriously flawed plans, learning ensues. As a beef cattle nube, I'll leave this bit of learning lesson for all of the other nubes.

When I was shopping for my niche in life, I focused heavily on a particular breed (I'll call it breed Z. Because I have offended many on other forums lately, I'll not add to the drama here by naming that breed here.). Because this is not your average breed of cattle, neighborly knowledge is next to non-existant. I had to depend on the internet to gain info on breed Z. All tribal knowledge I found of actual owner's of breed Z had the same buzzwords, same tone, same phrases, same claims, etc. They were all singing from the same hymnal:

-Gentle, Docile, easy to handle (other cattle are unruly and will run you into the turf)
-Excellent foragers (all other cattle only eat green grass)
-High meat yield (other cattle are all bone, fat, and gut).
-Heat and cold tolerant (other cattle can't handle your extreme midwest weather).
-etc (I've obviously embellished the implications of their claims).

As it turns out, when I found the breed Z associtions web site, all of the Breed Z spin I had found was echoed there. (probably echoed *from* there). I even saw youtube videos of Breed Z in action, eating weeds. As a first-timer with weed in sight, I thought "That's the breed for me!".

So the long journey to collect specimen begins. Ultimately what saved my bacon is that you can not find one of these freaks of the cattle world to save your life. And the breeders that do have them are very proud($$) of them. I did manage to drive about 2.5 hours to buy 2.5 of them.

With my 2.5 head, and 200 acres to choose from, I quickly realized that my pasture was going to get out of control without more help. So I just chucked in the "specialty" towel and bought a bunch of muts. Some really affordable, gentle, docile, weed eating, tasty, etc. muts. Everything I desired in the specialty breed was waiting for me in the multitude of farms surrounding me.

While I do see the merits of specialty breed specialization, I would not recommend that route unless it is the primary component of your plan (i.e. selling expensive cows to rubes like me). For me, breed specialization was not even a secondary part of the plan. But I bought into the propaganda and elevated the breed's claimed attributes over my goals. I also under-estimated my skills & the over-estimated the difficulty of handling cattle. (I'm not saying I am good and that cattle are easy. I am just talking nube-to-nube here).

The 2.5 head are 4 head now. I actually don't regret having them. They are pretty cool looking. And in March '13 I get to see what one looks like crossed with a hereford. I just wish I hadn't wasted valuable time seeking them out. Doing so cost me one generation. And as my herd grows to capacity, they will need to be the first to go, because the sale barn isn't friendly to them nor their likely freaky offspring. On top of it all, I have good evidence that the 4 head are cattle racists. Not that the other cows care.

Oh, I have to completely disagree with this. When we needed our first bull to breed some crossbred heifers, we looked at several breeds, eventually settling on the American Angus Assn and the [I]Angus Journal[I].

That was well over 20 years ago and they didn't steer us wrong then nor any time after that. They always had their eye on the commercial cattleman, looking for ways to add value to OUR bulls: EPDs, ADG, performance testing, etc. That focus has paid off wonderfully over the years sinced the majority of herds in the US now include Angus genetics.

I'll agree that "ice cream sherbert" type cattle are a disaster if you're truly wanting to make money. But I don't think you can lump all breed associations into one pot. A newbie needs to know what they plan to do with their cattle. If you didn't know that when you bought them.......

[rancher1913]

oregon-not saying papered breeders are bad, you just have to know your market and thats what I tried to impress on this guy but he just thought that because a cow had papers they would sell themselves.

[arnie]

As always if you are selling cattle rabbits alpacas ,reindeer ,or mushrooms .see if there is a market and a price or a need for what you intend to produce .there ia always some high price show stock for a limited market .but unless you are a super salesman joe average is not buying ostrach burger at 15$ when his buget won't hardly stand 3$ beef burger .we had some belted and line back cafs go to market in better condition than our angus (actually from the same bull) that sold for 30% less .the market buyers were. Only looking for angus any thing else was considerd hambuger .