Organic cattle

[Rob30]

Has anyone watched the polyface farm video? I have watched it twice now. I am interested in the cattle production piece. In the video he adds two products to the water of his stocker cattles water. I can not make out what the names of the products are. Does anyone know?
We have had issues with shipping fever and I would like to find a preventative way of treating them. Catching cattle and injecting them repeatedly is no fun. Plus since we market our meat to the public it would be better if we did not have to use antibiotics.

[ramiller5675]

I haven't seen the video, but I think you are talking about adding Apple Cider Vinegar and Basic H (some form of super soap) to the cattle's drinking water.

It is "supposed" to help with internal parasites, but I haven't ever been able to find any sort of trials or tests that actually determine if it actually works in any way. I doubt if it would do anything for preventing shipping fever.

[G. Seddon]

Rob30, I don't know what product is used in water that is supposed to prevent shipping fever.

When we sell an animal that's going to travel any distance, they get a dose of Pfizer One Shot 2-3 weeks before they leave; it's recommended by our vets, and so far, we've had no problems. Long transports can be very stressful on cattle and anything I can do to prevent illness is a good thing.

https://animalhealth.pfizer.com/site...HOT%C2%AE.aspx

[springvalley]

If your planning on selling organic, you won`t be able to use antibiotics. But if your going to be buying cattle and then feeding them out to sell to the public, you may sometime in their life have to use an antibiotic. And if you can get away with just using some when their calves, most simple antibiotics will be long out of their system by the time they go to the butcher. So it all depends on what you plan on doing, research is all I can say. > Thanks Marc

[sammyd]

We hauled several loads of organic cattle 100 miles or so and never used any sort of treatment.

why are you catching and injecting them repeatedly? Use a one shot vaccine.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by sammyd

We hauled several loads of organic cattle 100 miles or so and never used any sort of treatment.

why are you catching and injecting them repeatedly? Use a one shot vaccine.

100 miles is a short trip. The worst shipping problems come when calves spend a day or more on a truck. Their rumens empty out so there are no live flora in their guts when they arrive.

[haypoint]

If you are thinking of selling organic beef, understand that the feed must be certified organic and you have to keep records on each one. Also, know that you will be competing with South American beef.

Some American beef producers are expanding into the organic beef niche by exporting boxed beef from South America.

I think raising natural beef has more marketing possibilities than organic.

Soap and vinegar won't get rid of worms.

[Rob30]

We are not an "organic farm". We sell naturally raised meat products. If something gets sick we treat it. However I am always looking for natural preventative ways of caring for the livestock. As long as it is afordable. We have found prevention is usually cheaper and easier than treatment.
The Salatan video states he treats with some soap and another product to keep the calves healthy. It in someway allows the cattles natural imunity to be strong enought to prevent disease.
We have struggled with many deseases on the farm, since we began. I have found prevention, and common sense when it comes to management usually minimises losses. Of coarse sometimes it does not work, and sometimes I can't do want I wnat for one reason or another.
Worms in our sheep is one example. Rotational grazing, with cattle has dramatically reduced wormer cost. As well as selecting replacements that seem to tolerate worms better.
Apple cider is one product that we have found to increase the health of the livestock. It helps the stock fight off desease better. Making antibiotics less nessessary.

[CoachB]

I haven't seen the videos, but in his books he talks about using Shaklee's Basic H in the water as a preventative wormer. Seems like it was the only thing he used.

[haypoint]

How does one go about selecting livestock that tolerates parasites better than others?

How does Apple cider increase livestock health? What signs should I look for?

If Salatan is able to improve cattle health with a soap product, beyond "someway", does anyone know how this is possible?

I find it interesting that people deny the safety of GMO and Round Up after 40 years of world wide testing, but are willing to accept the equiliviant to cattle tea leaf readings as a basis of their own management practices.

I accept your beliefs as you accept mine. But we both are welcome to share our opinions.

[agmantoo]

Healthy well cared for cattle can tolerate some parasite load. Calves can and do build up some immunity as they age. In India no one worms the cattle but over time those cattle have built an immunity. If you will run a closed herd IMO over time you will have to do very little treatment for parasites. Rotational grazing will help with parasite control also. I only worm any animal that appears unthrifty. In the passed 12 months that is less than 2 % of my total herd.

[haypoint]

I understand that youngger cattle are ravaged by parasites while older cattle not as much. But, often that is after the damage has been done.

So since healthy animals tolerate a parasite load, I might imagane that a healthy head of hair tolerates an infestation of lice? I'm not sure I understand the concept.

You are partly right about a closed heard. But it is just aa touch more complicated than that. Many parasites survive in pastures for years. Wildlife shed parasite eggs. The parassites develop and get onto pasture grasses to be injested by your livestock.

So, a closed herd can exist without real wormers only if the fields are free of wildlife (deer, raccoon, mice, etc) and livestock have been kept off the pasture for at least a decade.

I only worm an adult animal that seems unthrifty, but since young animals can have arteries and internal organs damaged or scared, I worm young stock with regularity.

If you are going to limit effective treatments for parasites, treating animals prior to arrival to your farm is a good step. Closed herd is helpful.

I find the claim that cattle in India have developed an immunity to parasites interesting. Do you know where I may find out more about this amazing adaptation?

[haypoint]

Since your interest isn't in organic beef, but natural beef, you might find the web site
http://meyernaturalangus.com/

Raising thousands of cattle naturally and doing a fantastic job of filling the recent consumer demand for humanely raised natural beef.

They do vaccinate and worm their cattle.

[agmantoo]

Originally Posted by haypoint

I understand that youngger cattle are ravaged by parasites while older cattle not as much. But, often that is after the damage has been done.

So since healthy animals tolerate a parasite load, I might imagane that a healthy head of hair tolerates an infestation of lice? I'm not sure I understand the concept.

IMO all cattle will have some parasites. As long as these parasites are not impacting the economic continuation of maintaining the cattle or growing the cattle there should be no justification in treating for the parasites

You are partly right about a closed heard. But it is just aa touch more complicated than that. Many parasites survive in pastures for years. Wildlife shed parasite eggs. The parassites develop and get onto pasture grasses to be injested by your livestock.
Many parasites are only species specific. Some goat parasites do not impact cattle. Canine parasites typically attack only canines.
So, a closed herd can exist without real wormers only if the fields are free of wildlife (deer, raccoon, mice, etc) and livestock have been kept off the pasture for at least a decade.
You are confused with the comparing various species of animals and their specific parasites and thinking they apply to cattle. Most parasites impact only certain hosts.
I only worm an adult animal that seems unthrifty, but since young animals can have arteries and internal organs damaged or scared, I worm young stock with regularity.
If that is what works for you then you certainly need to continue the practice.
If you are going to limit effective treatments for parasites, treating animals prior to arrival to your farm is a good step. Only replacement bulls are brought to my place Closed herd is helpful.

I find the claim that cattle in India have developed an immunity to parasites interesting. Do you know where I may find out more about this amazing adaptation?

This is not a claim. It is facts. Just Google Brahman cattle parasite resistance. There are volumes of publications but most are on research findings. It will take some time to find the resistance on internal parasite articles but they there. There is also info on the research of cattle other than Brahman that have built up immunity through continued exposure. Research data also indicates that much of the immunity is genetic and there are articles about future resistance to parasites through DNA

I personally have witnessed the cattle in India and their visual absence of external parasites. It truly is amazing at how healthy these animals appear particularly with the absence of adequate feed or any care.

[Rob30]

I did not start this thread to trigger an argument about conventional farming and a more organic model. Obviously everyone has an opinion.
However my opinion on the matter is I don't trust information handed out by government institutions. I prefer to make up mind. I try different methods, listen to all sides of the argument, then do what I think is right.
As far as the safety of round up and GMO products, who says they are safe? The government? Your government has at least 4 ex monsanto executives in power right now. Of coarse they say it is safe. Monsanto is a psychopathic company. I would not support them, even if I thought their products were safe.
Even private studies are usually geared to produce the results they are looking for.
Stating round up has been around for 40 years so it must be safe is not the same as proving it is safe. My uncle has smoked for 40 years. That does not mean smoking is safe.
Personal beliefs aside. We direct market all of our farm products. The people we sell to want humanely raised, antibiotic, hormone free meat, pestiside and chemical fertilizer free vegetables. We sell what the customers want.
As far as the pasasite load of an animal. All animals carry parasites. The idea is to keep them at tolerable levels. It is impossible to eliminate them. That statement is from a government worker. It is also written is almost all livestock management books. The idea that repeated worming is needed is why most of the chemical wormers lose their effectiveness. Utillising management techniques to control parasites is more sustainable. It has been very effective in the sheep business. It is how mother mature controls parasites. And she has been at it a lot longer then we have. How many buffalo died of parasite infestations? There were more of them then there are cattle today running through North America.
I don't know how to easily check for parasites in cattle. Sheep can be checked for anemia. By checking ewe lambs coming off pasture, and keeping the ewes with low infestation, we can breed in parasite resistance. The katahdin is one breed of sheep that is parasite resistant, not parasite proof.
Running different species together or after each other also works. Our sheep are much better now that we keep cattle as well.

[Gopher]

Right on, Rob30, Right on. Great analogy of the person who smokes for 40 years.

[southerngurl]

Cattle aren't really that susceptible to parasites. Nothing like goats which I've had for 5.5 years.

We've had a few head of cattle for a few years and I've never wormed any. Import things to prevent parasite problems:

Don't let your grass get short, most parasites are on the lower 2 inches of grass. Letting your grass get short is also hard on the grass.
Rotating your pastures helps with this obviously.

Keep livestock other than just cattle. Horses/goats/sheep are dead end hosts for much of cattle's parasites (and the cattle does the same for them) vacuuming up your pasture.

Nutrition. Keeping your animals in excellent nutrition- which includes, energy, protein (forage source preferred) minerals (copper and zinc being of particular importance for immunity) and vitamins. Mine get Redmond's range mix which is whole salt (unrefined) with minerals added. It's about $18 per 50#.

Stress, keep stress down on the animals, which can come right down to how you handle and treat your animals. Consider things from their point of view. Stress depresses the immune system.

Anything to avoid the hoof to mouth cycle, never feed on the ground etc.

Don't monocrop your pastures, allow natural variety, have some areas that don't get mowed to allow herbs to grow. The cattle will eat them and help source needed nutrients. This is one of the best ways to get a good mineral balance in your animals. Different plants draw up different minerals.

Also, just because an animal is sick doesn't mean you need a drug. There are plenty of natural, very effective antibiotics that can be used. Garlic is a good staple and just chopping a couple bulbs up and feeding 3 times a day can do wonders (I've used to for mastitis twice and it works quickly both times, I've used it for mastitis in goats as well, works great).

You can also buy natural antibiotics and wormers (however, herbs for worm prevention would not be cost effective, I don't think, you would be better off planting such herbs in your field, in areas that won't get mowed) can be purchased from fir meadows.

Fir meadows also has a book which just came out and I have not purchased yet, would probably be a really great buy for someone learning how to do things without chems.

[Rob30]

I should mention that we don't let animal wellfare suffer hoping that we can cure them with a natural treatment. If an animal needs antibiotics, we use them. But is a last resort. It's one one of the reasons we would never certify as organic. For example we have used antibiotics for livestock with severe shipping fever, sheep with severe foot rot, etc. Unfortunatly we bought some infected sheep a few years ago. However we have come up with a method to cure the foot rot problem. We should be free from it by pasture season.
However we use natural preventative measures to deal with regular issues. we utilize most of the suggestions that Southerngirl suggested. The more we use natural preventative methods of dealing with health issues of our livestock and plants, the longer the "strong" stuff will work when we need it.
There is just as much evidence out there proving that there are ways of farming successfully without all the chemicals and drugs. It is just harder to find because no one is making money off of it.

[CoachB]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

[B]This is not a claim. It is facts. Just Google Brahman cattle parasite resistance.

Salatin has some Brahman in his herd. Likes it for the heat tolerance, claims they will graze better without shade in the summer. I read in his book that he also culled heavily early on while building his herd.

[sammyd]

we don't let animal wellfare suffer hoping that we can cure them with a natural treatment. If an animal needs antibiotics, we use them.

This is directly in line with organic rules. However the animal will be shipped off and sold as non organic once antibiotics are used.