Is there any such thing as a giant Dexter?

Laura Workman · #1 01/09/12, 01:28 AM

I wanted a LITTLE cow. I researched and researched, and wound up purchasing a nice little 6-month-old heifer in September of 2010. Brought her home, fed her for 15 months, and she is now, officially, huge. I've thought she was getting pretty big, and I measured her tonight. I laid a lathe levelly across the top of her hipbones, and measured at the bottom of the lathe . . . 45 INCHES!!!

And she's only 21 months old. Heck, I wouldn't use a BULL that big! So I guess now I'm back to square one, and not happy about it.

I've bred her AI to White-O-Morn Chief, a little chondro positive bull (heifer's tested negative), in the hope of getting a chondro positive heifer. But really, given the size of this cow, even a chondro positive baby is most likely going to turn out bigger than I want, if not taller.

I'm really quite disappointed about this, especially since small, red cows seem to be roughly as common as hens' teeth in this area.

I'm also wondering whether I brought this on myself by feeding her mostly alfalfa or alfalfa/grass hay while she was growing up (and up and up).

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Ken Scharabok · #2 01/09/12, 05:19 AM

Do you have a BIG Dexter or a SMALL Angus?

Any population follows the bell shaped curve.

I only have 14 cows now. If the average beef cow is 1,200 pounds, several of mine are pushing 1,700. One is admittedly swaged back and big bellied. Others are just big. About a heavy as my 'rent-a-bull'.

lakeportfarms · #3 01/09/12, 08:13 AM

Well, I'm probably going to get flamed for this (until Genebo responds). What Ken said is true, with a few added comments. As the Dexter breed rapidly expands in numbers, there is a greater likelihood that both bulls and heifers that may have ordinarily been culled from the herdbook are not, because of the increased demand (for breeding stock) bulls and heifers. Many of the larger ones are now, instead of being terminal, being bred which is making them bigger and bigger. Furthermore, because of the popularity of the red color, anything of that color seems to be kept and bred or sold as breeding stock. These factors will cause the overall size of the breed to increase as time marches on. Some breeders are doing a good job of keeping to the breed standard, culling those with less desirable traits including temperament, size, and confirmation, but others are less discriminating and sell everything they can. I don't know the parentage of your heifer, but she's probably out of larger size parents. I'm going to guess she's naturally polled too?

There is also a tendency for a lot of people to try to keep their cows and bulls at a BCS of 8 or more, thinking it's healthy. Just as with people, it is not. But the increased nutrition is causing them to grow bigger. I'm not advocating you starve your cows, but if you're going to feed them until they "pop" reserve it for the terminal ones.

You're correct, breeding her to White O Morn may help with your height, especially if the calf is a carrier, but it may not work with the frame of your calf that much because it will take 1/2 of it's genetics from mom.

If you want a little cow and can't keep two, don't get too attached to this one. I guess my suggestion would be to keep searching for your little one, breed her to a small bull, and find somebody who wants to buy a bigger red cow. It would take you years to breed down the size using this heifer as your starting point.

myersfarm · #4 01/09/12, 09:27 AM

sounds like a angus in the wood pile

Ken Scharabok · #5 01/09/12, 09:39 AM

I have heard that expression before. Where did it orginate?

Ken Scharabok · #6 01/09/12, 09:51 AM

And I note, my girls predominately operate on grass and hay. Supplemental feed is just a treat to get them to go where I want them to, when I want them to.

Temperment is my #1 culling factor. If it is a very good reason I'll forgive a cow for not raising a presentable calf one year. Second time, no.

And my temperment criteria is I can at least touch them on their nose and how they act the two times a year I need to get them up. Once for vaccinations and fly tags. Second is to pull the calves off them for sale. That night you really don't want to be here.

lakeportfarms · #7 01/09/12, 10:54 AM

I'm going to guess your cow is Irish Rose? She shows her sire as Red Rocket and Dam as Benedicta? The bull (Red Rocket) doesn't look large for a non-carrier and I couldn't see a photo of the dam, but this bull (at the same farm and out of the same bull as who sired your heifer) struck me as interesting...

http://www.dextercattle.org/pedigree...&Page=1&Sort=6

How do you get a carrier bull (Firestorm) out of two non-carrier parents (Red Rocket and Tauri)? I don't mean to cause trouble, but somebody made a mistake...

lakeportfarms · #8 01/09/12, 11:04 AM

Sorry, it's my mistake! I looked at the PHA not the Chondro status. The bull is obviously a carrier.

cowkeeper · #9 01/09/12, 09:40 PM

Well there would not be Angus, she is not polled. There are plenty of Dexter cows that are 45" and taller, even in the 'older' bloodlines. The pedigree of that cow shows a lot of larger animals. You would need to look at the breeders stock and select an animal that has parents that are the size you want (non-dwarf stock, because dwarf parents will also throw non dwarf offspring and you wont know the true genetic height). You can find non dwarf cows easily in the 41-42 inch range, and even 39 and 40 inch non dwarfs sometimes. You heifer is probably larger at a young age due to being pushed with feed, but would not become larger than her genetically programmed size.ck

Laura Workman · #10 01/09/12, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeportfarms

I'm going to guess your cow is Irish Rose? She shows her sire as Red Rocket and Dam as Benedicta? The bull (Red Rocket) doesn't look large for a non-carrier and I couldn't see a photo of the dam, but this bull (at the same farm and out of the same bull as who sired your heifer) struck me as interesting...

http://www.dextercattle.org/pedigree...&Page=1&Sort=6

How do you get a carrier bull (Firestorm) out of two non-carrier parents (Red Rocket and Tauri)? I don't mean to cause trouble, but somebody made a mistake...

You know, I thought that same thing, and then I looked closely at Rocket. He's a non-carrier of PHA. The listing says nothing about Chondro, and he sure looks like a carrier to me.

OK, dopey me, I probably should have read your next post, eh?

Laura Workman · #11 01/09/12, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowkeeper

You heifer is probably larger at a young age due to being pushed with feed, but would not become larger than her genetically programmed size.ck

If I get one with small parents and feed it alfalfa/grass or alfalfa, will she grow bigger as an end result than if I fed just grass hay? I ask because I'm looking at some cows in my area that might be small (haven't seen them yet), but young. Also, I just bought a horse out of the kill pen, and he's obese because of that, so I'm feeding first cut local grass hay to him. I have way more alfalfa and alfalfa/grass on hand at this point, but I'll by golly get more local grass if the alfalfa is going to give me a big cow again.

Laura Workman · #12 01/09/12, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowkeeper

The pedigree of that cow shows a lot of larger animals.

Can you tell me how you know this? I have a lot of trouble trying to figure out how big some of these animals are.

Skip · #13 01/10/12, 10:27 PM

Laura would you be so kind to post a picture of her next to something like "yourself" so I could understand her size. My girls are small I presume because they have zebu sire. I had a hard time finding a bull for them. They are around the 40-41" range.

Do you like her temperment? My boss cow is aloof but comes when called and calls after me. The other one is like a goofy puppy licking all the time but highstrung, more flightly. The bull calf is curious, knows his name, but does not want to be touched.

Guess my little herd are more pets than cattle?!?

goodhors · #14 01/10/12, 11:32 PM

I will say in my experience, that genetics is the decision maker in height. Rich feed like the alfalfa, will make them fatter, earlier in life, but never taller than their genetics will allow.

I see heritage animals, mostly horses, that get taller in the USA than they do at home. Feed is consistantly richer, year around, so they grow to much taller sizes than their parents did. With the better feed program, the animal grows to the maximum possible that his genetics allow. With less grain fed, they may grow slower, but they don't QUIT growing until they have reached that much taller height. I see it happen over and over, where the colts grow lots larger than the parents, all the grandparents, and siblings that a stallion may have produced before importation to the USA.

As someone said, there is a lot less severe culling for size these days. You can sell the Dexters for more as breeding animals than they fetch for beef. Everyone says "Oh it is ONLY an inch or so!" and that is supposed to "make it all right" when they do it.

Cattle folks can be quite severe in removing animal problems, temper, color, size, in their herds, production animals for sale, IF they wish to. The animals I see are not recent imports, who could be reacting to a richer diet here.

To keep the Dexters smaller, people have to refuse to use bulls and cows that have too much height. Or breed back to the very small bull, cull those calves that do continue to be taller than the standards of the breed call for.

I don't think just feeding alfalfa will make your cow grow too big, if she has the correct height genetics to start with. She might get her growth EARLIER, younger, than a cow fed lesser quality diet, but not taller than she is genetically programmed to be. If she is too tall, then genetics need changing.

gracie88 · #15 01/12/12, 09:49 PM

Quote:

If I get one with small parents and feed it alfalfa/grass or alfalfa, will she grow bigger as an end result than if I fed just grass hay?

Only if the parents were stunted due to underfeeding and have more genetic potential for size than they show.

65284 · #16 01/13/12, 01:19 PM

Laura, yes there are some giant Dexters, most of them are or carry the red color. I fully expect to get roasted for this, but in my opinion the fascination with red had been detrimental to the breed. For example, Brambledell Redberry Prince was a huge red bull.

cowkeeper · #17 01/13/12, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65284

Laura, yes there are some giant Dexters, most of them are or carry the red color. I fully expect to get roasted for this, but in my opinion the fascination with red had been detrimental to the breed. For example, Brambledell Redberry Prince was a huge red bull.

Hi, Here are some facts: Looking at the list of some available AI bulls, there are #4882 Red Baron, a (red) non dwarf 45 inches at 4yrs., #9020 Finerty a (red) non dwarf 44 inches at 8 yrs., Redberry Prince #14907 , (red) non dwarf was 46.7 inches at 4yrs. Then we have an all American traditional line bull #8711 Lochinvar (black, not carrying red) non dwarf who was 50 inches at 8yrs.ck

genebo · #18 01/13/12, 03:57 PM

There are some breeders who have chosen to raise larger Dexters. They want more beef with bigger cuts. They lobbied hard to have the breed standard raised to match their big Dexters.

It flies in the face of the Dexter breed's broad appeal. It is their small size that most sets them aside from other breeds. Those that are breeding them bigger aren't doing us any favors.

cowkeeper · #19 01/13/12, 04:15 PM

This thread started with someone wanting a small cow, who ended up with a larger one. Then, it got blamed on 'red'.
The OP had questions about Dexter sizes. A search shows other than red, can also be large. I once found a website where a couple of their purebred Dexter cows were 52 inches!!! The key to keeping Dexters to the breed standard size (with an eye to retaining the even more important traits like overall health and longevity, milk, udders and dual purpose conformation) is proper selection. If you are not a breeder, but are buying a young calf, you must look at the size of the parents and other close relatives.
The OP might get the idea that staying away from a particular color will guarantee a smaller animal, and that is simply not true.ck

lakeportfarms · #20 01/13/12, 04:54 PM

The comments about red Dexters being larger have merit. Due to the current popularity for red nearly all of them are retained, including the largest ones. It will lead to gradual increase in size over the years. It is also happening withe the black and dun color, to a lesser extent. Soon there will be a large gap between the smallest Dexters and the largest ones, but the average size will still increase. But Laura would be best served trying to find a smaller one rather than breeding a replacement out of this one, if she's looking for small.