Opps Holstein over Hereford

InvalidID · #1 12/31/11, 08:47 PM

Not my opps but a fella down the road a bit. His neighbors Holstein bull got out and in with the his Herefords. I know black herefords are worth a bit, but we're concerned that the huge calves might kill his cows. Anyone have some good news for him?

tinknal · #2 12/31/11, 09:03 PM

If they have calved before they should be fine. I'd be concerned about a heifer but I wouldn't panic.

InvalidID · #3 12/31/11, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

If they have calved before they should be fine. I'd be concerned about a heifer but I wouldn't panic.

I think it's a mix, I'll pass that on though thanks. The neighbor seems to think everything will be fine. What would the guy think considering his bull got out though right...lol

haypoint · #4 12/31/11, 10:12 PM

Bad news. I'd have the vet give them all a shot to abort.
Easier than having the Vet do a C section and perhaps losing the calf and cow next summer.

If they were open, there is nothing to lose if they were aborted now. The guy with the bull should pay Vet costs.

tinknal · #5 12/31/11, 11:07 PM

I worked on a registered Hereford ranch in MT years ago. We kept records on every cow. One got bred by a "mystery bull" that was obviously a Holstein. To the boss's eternal embarrassment that cow was his top producer for the year.

Radicalrob01 · #6 01/01/12, 01:13 AM

I would check the records, if birth weights are close to the same you should not have a problem. I read some where that a young holstein bull breed several highland cows (highlands are my favorite breed, I read alot about them) and hes said they all turned out great. I believe he keep 3 heifers to increase the steer size. Not really sure where I read or I would send you the link, sorry.

Ronney · #7 01/01/12, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Bad news. I'd have the vet give them all a shot to abort.
Easier than having the Vet do a C section and perhaps losing the calf and cow next summer.

If they were open, there is nothing to lose if they were aborted now. The guy with the bull should pay Vet costs.

This is what would happen here if the farmer running the cows was breeding specifically to a breed, and his boundary fences were good. The farmer with the wandering bull would be liable for all costs.

Having said that, the Hereford/Friesian cross is a popular one here (we call them Black White Faces or BWF) and they are much sought after. They are massive milk producers if kept as breeding cows and produce great calves if put to an Angus bull. My neighbour runs BWF's and leases my Angus bull. Her calves are to die for.

However, this cross usually comes about from Hereford over Friesian, (clean-up bulls in dairy herds) not Friesian over Hereford and the Hereford is known for small birthweights with good growth rates. Whether that works the other way round, I'm not too sure of but I don't see why it shouldn't. I think I would take the punt and let things be if I wasn't particularly fussed on breeding. Just my take.

Cheers,
Ronnie

haypoint · #8 01/01/12, 11:49 PM

Ronnie, Herefords, known for small calves are a good pick to put on a small Holstein, known for their large calves, to insure an easy birth.
Putting a bull from a breed that has large calves on a cow that is a breed that has small calves is a disaster. I am sure of this.

DJ in WA · #9 01/02/12, 01:06 AM

Depends on the Herefords. Are they frame size 3 or 7?

Probably also depends on the Hereford owner's personality. If he's the fretting kind, aborting would be the way to go rather than worry for 8 months.

If he's into taking risks and dealing with possible consequences, might be fun to go for it.

Like Tinknal said, in good size adult cows, probably low risk. Can't be worse than the little heifer I had calve at 15 months last year.

myersfarm · #10 01/02/12, 09:25 AM

I see it as a no win....
...if his cows were bred to HIS BULL and he lost 10 cow do to calving.. or had to pull 10calves ..it would be just a problem with his bull or the cows were too old or some other reason

with this breding if he loses one cow or even has to pull one it will be the neighbors bull was the problem

tinknal · #11 01/02/12, 12:55 PM

If it was old style Herefords it might be a concern, but Hereford breeders were able to slip enough Simmental blood into their herds back before DNA testing became common to significantly increase frame size.

InvalidID · #12 01/02/12, 01:41 PM

I talked to him this morning and he's going to let it ride. Says he'll be a bit nervous come calving time but... So I'll let you guys know what happens...lol

Tink, his girls are freaking huge so maybe he'll be ok.

springvalley · #13 01/02/12, 10:11 PM

Just depends alot on the bull calving size, could be good , could be bad. Good Luck, > Marc

haypoint · #14 01/03/12, 01:05 PM

Generally, Angus and Herefords have small calves. As mentioned earlier, knowing what size calves your bull throws is very important.
Here is a photo of a too large calf that later had to be cut out of the cow. Apparently the bull was black, but likely also had some holstein blood.

Getting a bit nervous at calving time isn't a viable solution.

Opps Holstein over Hereford - Cattle

oregon woodsmok · #15 01/03/12, 08:45 PM

I wouldn't be too worried about it, except that the 1/2 Holstein calves are worth a lot less than a pure beef calf. I wouldn't be very happy about that.

It's the shoulder size that you have to worry about. I don't think Holstein shoulders are any wider than Hereford shoulders. A good Hereford cow should be wide and deep and capable of birthing a 1/2 Holstein calf.

Ronney, a BWF here is half Hereford and 1/2 Angus. A half beef and half dairy calf isn't much wanted by anyone. They don't do either beef or milk as well as a pure calf.

InvalidID · #16 01/03/12, 09:02 PM

Oregon, I looked into what kind of hybrid this would make and found out it's a popular choice in the UK. They tend to do Hereford on Holstein though. It's not unlike US ranchers doing an Angus on a Holstein here (for dairy cows first breeding), except the Black Herefords as they are called do better on grass.

Opps Holstein over Hereford - Cattle

This is what the hybrid heifers look like. I agree they wouldn't be up to US standards for a beef cow, but I'd personally like to have a few females to breed to an Angus bull. The smaller females and extra milk would make for some FAT babies calves for market... I think.

haypoint · #17 01/03/12, 09:46 PM

In my experience (yours may be different) the shoulders can cause some trouble, but a large calf presents two distinct problems. Note the example on my earlier post. A large calf is much more likely to have one or both front feet back. It is rare that a cow can pass a calf with front legs back. But, caught early, a skilled cattleman can get his arm far into the cow and bring out the legs without puncturing her uterus.

That's just a dirty trick Mother nature plays on Cattlemen. With the feet brought forth, one begins to believe that we are about to see a sucessful birth. But reality sets in when we remember that fighting for the missing front leg, up to your shoulder in afterbirth, is the easy part. Hip Lock comes next. This is where the cow's pelvic opening cannot pass the calf's pelvis. The calf's pelvis, caught in the cow's pelvis, will press against a group/band of important nerves. That's when the cow goes down and cannot get up. If you are able to get in there, as the cow moans and groans on the ground, and cut the calf and cut apart it's oversized pelvis, you have a good chance the cow will live. Percentages that she''l ever re-breed are lower. Delay, and the nerve damage quickly becomes irreverseable and the cow never gets up again.

If my cows had a 6 week fetus the size of a walnut that is capable of placing my cows and I into such torture, I doubt my solution would be, " Well, we'll just have to see how this turns out." Does the Anti-Abortion sentiment extend to cattle?

Herford or Angus on Holstein, every day. Holstein on Herford or Angus, never, never, never. But that's just my opinion.

Karin L · #18 01/04/12, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvalidID

Oregon, I looked into what kind of hybrid this would make and found out it's a popular choice in the UK. They tend to do Hereford on Holstein though. It's not unlike US ranchers doing an Angus on a Holstein here (for dairy cows first breeding), except the Black Herefords as they are called do better on grass.

Opps Holstein over Hereford - Cattle

This is what the hybrid heifers look like. I agree they wouldn't be up to US standards for a beef cow, but I'd personally like to have a few females to breed to an Angus bull. The smaller females and extra milk would make for some FAT babies calves for market... I think.

Hays Converters are Holstein-Hereford hybrids:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/
http://www.thecattlesite.com/breeds/...erter/overview

InvalidID · #19 01/04/12, 01:18 PM

That's pretty interesting Karen. I'll have to look closer at those as they really fit what I want.

DJ in WA · #20 01/04/12, 11:55 PM

THis subject sounded familiar, and here's a thread on the subject of cows from this cross.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/vie...hp?f=5&t=73616

Guess it depends on what you're doing. As a beef cow, the extra milk can be a problem (scours, losing condition, etc). If you have use for the extra milk, and feed them well so they don't lose condition and can breed back, might be okay. You'd want to breed them to something that could throw high growth calves to utilize the extra milk. That usually is one of the continental breeds like Charolais, or Limousin, or something.

The guy that does my AI has a holstein dairy and an angus herd, and some angus/holstein crosses produce so much he has them in his milking string. But when combining two very different genetics, it's a crapshoot as to what you'll get in each cow. As haypoint said, they'd be not as good beef cows, and not as good dairy cows. There's a reason people don't breed their beef cows to make alot of milk.

THe best use would be to sell heifers as family cows people could milk, and breed to beef to get a good beef calf.

For me, the resulting cows would be too big. I'd rather have Jersey/beef crosses. The talk among most beef guys is that cows have gotten too big.