Just had meeting with soil conservation

[WJMartin]

Ok, just a little ranting.
Just got back from walking my small farm (60 acres) with the soil conservation folks and I'm quite proud of myself for not slapping the @#$% out of the woman. If I heard her say one more time, "Well, you have cattle that is the biggest problem." one more time........... the particular area she went on about hasn't had anything on it for almost 20 years until this last spring, I put 5 head on that 15 acres. We had a drought, it is poooooor soil and covered in cedars and has some wash areas, what can you tell me to do to help that!? Nothing! What do we pay you for?
Sorry, just needed to yell for a second.
They had very little imput, no suggestions for forage selections, no help for the wash and erosion that is coming from the airport. They think the washes were all started by gofers so there isn't anything that can be done. The only new info I got was that my small pond is going to wash away someday because I don't have a pipe in it, just a dirt spillway. Thanks for the info.
When I told them I was tying to set up for rotational grazing the woman told me that would be a bad idea because then I would have trails leading to the water, I asked her what did she think I had now. She said I needed to give the fields a rest, I told her that is what rotation grazing is, each field gets more time to recover and rest than when you use one large grazing field.
So, guess I wasn't too impressed with our soil department, I'm not giving up on them, think I'll call them out once in a while just to get my money's worth. Maybe I'll come up with some new questions like, so how many of those cedars need to come out? Maybe ya'll could help by submitting questions too.

[genebo]

What a bad situation. I feel for you.

Our local soil conservation agent just retired. She was very good at her job. Helpful and friendly. Had an answer for almost every problem. They're advertising for a new person to fill the job. I sure hope we get another good one.

[SCRancher]

I have a couple of wash areas that are near my creek - not bad but I don't really want them to get worse.

I'm thinking of dropping a large round bale of hay in them.

I had a pipe I buried in a natural drain area, when it rained it exposed my pipe. I bought some small square pine needle bales and staked them in/around the area, threw some branches/logs in the area too; this did the trick for that area.

I agree with you when you talk to someone who is supposed to be a expert and they know less then you or even worse give you clearly wrong information.

[bruce2288]

WJ, IF SHE was simply the local county nrcs person call yyour university and see if they have a grazing specialist to talk to.

[ramiller5675]

If you have eroded washes in the same areas that you have cedars, either the cedars are there because it was eroded or the erosion was caused by the cedars. Or, a combination of both.

Cut down every cedar you can and leave them where they fall for a year or so until they dry out. Leaving them to dry out will return some of the organic material back to the spot where they grew, and make them easier to handle in the future if you decide to pile them up, etc. Once they are dry, many of the smaller trees and most of the limbs on the bigger ones will "crumble" or shatter if you go back and push the into piles.

Using something like a bulldozer to push live trees over or pile just cut down trees will reseed a lot of the seeds laying dormant under the live trees, so using a chainsaw and waiting to pile them can pay off in the long run with fewer small trees to deal with.

If you have areas that are eroded, pile trees into those washes to catch the sediment washing down the slope (either while green or after drying despite what I said above).

Cattle grazing creates grasslands and no cattle grazing creates brush and trees. If she thinks that cattle grazing creates cedar trees, she's an idiot.

I have seen hundreds of ponds and could count on one hand how many have had pipes spillways. Putting a pipe into a dam, creates it own set of problems, one of which is keeping the water from leaking around the pipe and washing out the dam. I can easily fix and maintain a grassed spillway while the pond is full of water, but it is impossible to fix a leaking pipe without draining the pond and rebuilding the dam.

Cut down the cedars, smooth out some of the erosion and/or pile dead cedar trees in the area, maintain your spillway, and stock some cattle.

[MO_cows]

You might try contacting the Noble Foundation and see if they have info. available. They even created their own composite breed of cattle, the Noble Line, developed specifically for Oklahoma conditions, and I'll bet they have forage management info, too.

[springvalley]

Some soil conservation agents are good and some are not, if you don`t have much liestock in your county I can see where they would be of not much use. I never call on mine, I know how to take care of my farm better than they do. I had a couple areas that use to wash some and found that corn cobs dumped in them works great. We use to have alot of guys that picked ear corn around here (now none) and I use to haul the cobs home for helping shell corn. I have hauled thousands of bushels of corn cobs over the years for erosion control and bedding. > Thanks Marc

[Darren]

I'm not surprised at what you heard. The info is out there. Unless you get lucky, you won't find it coming from any one person who works for an agency that is part of the USDA. Much of it is common sense. Plants grow somewhere for a reason. That includes weeds. They'll tell you about the soil condition if you can read them.

Plants over time create situations that are suitable for other plants and you get a succession. I don't know what that would be for your area.

You can rotate cover crops to correct soil deficiencies. That probably means no cattle but hair sheep might be a low buck, lower maintenance option to also improve the soil via manure. Those are the best way to improve soil fertility and restore the soil's natural ecology.

Check the soil maps in your area to see which types of soils you have. The USDA has a great paperback book on cover crops. Get one of those. Get a subscription to Acres USA for a constant source of land husbandry tips. Then start noodling it out for yourself.

The drainage issues can be worked out. I'd look up the land grant college in your state. That may or may not be a solution depending on the faculty and their expertise.

[FEF]

Originally Posted by WJMartin

Ok, just a little ranting.
Just got back from walking my small farm (60 acres) with the soil conservation folks and I'm quite proud of myself for not slapping the @#$% out of the woman. If I heard her say one more time, "Well, you have cattle that is the biggest problem." one more time........... the particular area she went on about hasn't had anything on it for almost 20 years until this last spring, I put 5 head on that 15 acres. We had a drought, it is poooooor soil and covered in cedars and has some wash areas, what can you tell me to do to help that!? Nothing! What do we pay you for?
Sorry, just needed to yell for a second.
They had very little imput, no suggestions for forage selections, no help for the wash and erosion that is coming from the airport. They think the washes were all started by gofers so there isn't anything that can be done. The only new info I got was that my small pond is going to wash away someday because I don't have a pipe in it, just a dirt spillway. Thanks for the info.
When I told them I was tying to set up for rotational grazing the woman told me that would be a bad idea because then I would have trails leading to the water, I asked her what did she think I had now. She said I needed to give the fields a rest, I told her that is what rotation grazing is, each field gets more time to recover and rest than when you use one large grazing field.
So, guess I wasn't too impressed with our soil department, I'm not giving up on them, think I'll call them out once in a while just to get my money's worth. Maybe I'll come up with some new questions like, so how many of those cedars need to come out? Maybe ya'll could help by submitting questions too.

Are you a cooperator with the Noble Foundation in Ardmore, OK? They offer a ton of advice.

http://www.noble.org/ag/

They may not do it now, but back when we bought our first cattle, they sent a team to talk to us. There was a soils guy, forage guy, livestock guy, a horticulture guy, and a wildlife management guy. We had that same group for years, then they made some changes. They were really, really good. We had talked about clearing land and planting bermuda...they really encouraged us to leave the native grass standing where it was good. That pays big dividends when we don't have rain....and we didn't have any this year. I couldn't begin to tell you how they've helped us over the years. We've been doing this a long time now, so we've dropped to their "inactive" status, but I know if we called, they be glad to help us.

There is a thread at the top of this board about rotational/intensive grazing. Take time to read it. We made a tremendous difference in grass production when we instituted an intensive grazing program on this place. I grew up on this place and was amazed at the grass we were able to grow without fertilizers. 'Course when it doesn't rain..... But that native stuff will be back. I'm not so sure about the patches of bermuda and Plains.

You don't say where in OK you are. But if you'd want to drive to our place and look at our fence layout, PM me.

[WJMartin]

FEF, I have searched some of the Noble Foundation pages but I'm not sure what a cooperator is, please explain. I'll pm you, would really appreciate having an opportunity to check out your setup.

There were two guys and the woman who came out, I told them that I have 7 head of cattle and 2 ponies on 55-60 acres and would like to expand the herd to 10 -12 head of cattle and 4 ponies and use a rotational type grazing.
Told me that rotational grazing was of no value, overseeding was probably a waste of time, there is no cool weather forage that grows in Oklahoma, I didn't ask them what they thought wheat was, had no suggestions what to do about the erosion I had going on, did suggest that I cut down all the cedars I can. Didn't know anything about the Noble Foundation, I asked about MaxQ fescue developed there, chicken litter was too exspensive and a commercial fertilizer would be better. The only contribution the woman made was to get rid of the cattle because their grazing was destroying the grass, she said this about 15 times.
I have been on their website printing off info for them about what their jobs are, I'm trying not to get too ticked off, it has just occured to me that the woman may be the same one from about 5 or 6 years ago who allowed the airport contractor who was building the runway to silt in my big pond so much that we had to tear it out and then she claimed it wasn't that bad.
Some of the worst erosion is on the worst soil with lots of cedars, it had been terraced about 50 years ago and two of the terraces have broken down and are washing. This will be the first area I address, thanks for the suggestions, we have just purchased a tree cutter that fits on the tractor and that should help alot.
The contractor had cut a new spillway on the small pond, he filled in the old one, our property is that close to the runway, anyway he did such a bad job that we haven't used the pond since, but last spring I had a dozer come in and try to fix it and he did OK but I'm having alot of trouble getting anything to grow on hardpan clay except cockleburrs so it is slow going. Am currently trying to locate some old hay bales but with the drought it may take some time, I have some bales I was using in the garden so I'm going to load them up and take them over to the pond spillway area. I have been putting bermuda sprigs and some manure on the area and have some growth but with this summer's drought, you know, we are getting some rain now so I am trying to seed some rye and stuff.
One of the guys asked what I wanted them to do but was interrupted by someone else talking to me so when I calm down I think I'll try to talk to him and tell them, I need help with a plan to improve my land for grazing, is that too much to ask for?
They did mention maybe it would help if I had a soil test done and were surprised when I told them I had sent in 4 samples, just waiting for them to come back. One of the guys was knowledgable about plants, reconized one saying it usually only grows on poor soil, really, what can I do about that, shoulder shrug.
Sorry this is so rambling, I'm still ticked.
Oh yeah, one of the guys told me if I would just leave the land alone it would heal itself, I told him there had not been any grazing done on this property for 20 years until this March through June and then Sept. - Oct. so I didn't think the land could do it all by itself. When we bought the property 25 years ago it was being heavily grazed and I didn't notice any washing and the cedars were fewer and smaller, if I had only known.

[ramiller5675]

For info on the cooperator program try:
http://noble.org/Ag/Cooperators/index.html

The Kerr Center also might have some info at:
http://www.kerrcenter.com/

If you had a productive pasture before, there is probably still a seed bank built up under the cedars that will help to reseed your pasture once the cedars are cut down.

You should be glad that you know enough already to know that the "advisers" aren't giving you good advice. If you didn't know what you already know, you would be blindly following bad advice and getting further away from your goals.

[agmantoo]

oday, 12:41 PM
WJMartin
I do not participate in the funded agriculture projects nor do I take their advice. This allows me to function as I see fit without some threatening to take away something from me. I suggest that you continue as you are by remaining independent and learn on your own.

Here are a few things my place has gained from the assistance of the government.

I have a constant threat of Kudzu from their recommendation of years ago.
The neighboring farm is overrun with the pest. His initial plants came from the extension people

There are still terraces so deep that I cannot easily cross with my tractors and the bushhog running into the ground.
Erosion created by the terraces is so great where the terraces empty into the woods that the woods had a very large gully and many major ditches. I have spent thousands of my earned dollars correcting the erosion and making the farm suitable to use.

Building recommendations and funding for the terraces came from the government

Over the last fifty years prior to 2000 the farm has not been self sustaining.
The prior owner closed down due to the lack of income from a nearly no profit operation

I was told by the government visitors the following

I had to calve either in the Fall or Spring

I should figure on having one calf every 12 months
I have most cows calving every 10 1/2 months. Thus I stand a chance of having an "extra" calf each 6 years


I need to use commercial fertilizer
I use chicken litter which is affordable and has lots of trace elements. I only fertilize 20% of the farm each year.

I needed to have separate herds of cattle, one for the bulls, one for heifers and cows and that I should never permit the young heifers to run with the bull and cow herd.
I have one herd. All ages and sexes are co-mingled, few if any problems

I would need to make hay and plan to feed the hay for not less than 120 days
I ceased to make hay starting around 2002. Since then I have fed hay only twice, both times due to drought.

I needed to wean the calves and separate them from the main herd
Feeder calves are taken directly from the herd and marketed. I receive no additional income for prepping the calves and I do nothing as a result.

I should apply herbicides for the undesirable plants in the paddocks
I have a herbicide license but use herbicides for trash control around my perimeter fencing. Herbicides are relative cheap but no one discusses how the herbicides stress the tolerant plants

I should eradicate the endophyte KY31 fescue and plant either low or no endophyte fescue. Now there is the endophyte friendly fescues.
To date my experience is that if you use fescue and you want a stand of it to last you had better get cattle that can tolerate the endophyte as the replacements fescues die off within an couple of years.

That as an average producer of feeder calves I should anticipate making $78/calf.
If I made no more than this from the operation I would depopulate next sale barn sale

I am certain that I left somethings out that did not come to mind as I typed this.

[Allen W]

WJMartin

In my part of the state in an average year an average pasture your size would run 5 to 6 pairs of cattle. This year 2 or 3 would be about all. Each pony eats about as much as a cow or more. You might try your local extention office for help.

How much luck you will have with cool season grasses in OK will depend on where you are at and the weather. I've seen one patch of succesful fescue here, about 7 or 8 acres, and heard of another one. Not much but productive enough to be of a benefit to a small bunch of cattle.

[WJMartin]

I made contact today with a local seed supplier and am going to pick his brain tomorrow about what grows where locally and when. My plan is to continue with cedar clearing and fence building and then seed in test plots, see what survives and plant some more. I currently have Dexters and I like the breed, small and easy for me to handle and tastey too, they are suppose to be good grazers but maybe because they are small they just don't need as much.

Agmantoo, thanks for the encouragement, I've had the extention agent and now soil conservation tell me to forget about rotational grazing, so since I like your advice I'm taking it.

WJMartin

[myersfarm]

they only want to stay in office here

[agmantoo]

WJMartin
Admittedly I am not that familiar with your area but I am truly convinced that if you do nothing but rotate the animals that rotational grazing will permit more animals to be carried on any land. By preventing overgrazing the forage that normally would be available will be present and over a longer period of time and that forage will recover much quicker. I do know for certain that I am maximizing the forages that I have and I can graze earlier in the Spring and later in the Fall than any of my neighbors.

[FEF]

Well, those people get paid to make recommendations. But I just can't believe that rotational/intensive grazing wouldn't help 90% of the pastures in OK. I grew up on this place and I can tell you that it made a remarkable difference in grass production here. Now when it doesn't rain like this year, nothing helps. You might be a bit far north for Bermuda?

You know, I'm not sure exactly what the definition of a Noble Foundation "cooperator" is any more. First, you have to live within 100 miles of Ardmore. They have a map on their webpage showing their area. When we started, they gave us a team, as I mentioned, to come over to the place, evaluate, take soil tests and make recommendations. They called/we called, we attended seminars on pasture management, marketing, livestock management.....I couldn't tell you how many of those educational programs we attended. And they usually fed us, too. We've visited feedlots and packing plants with them. As I say, we've been out of the loop for a while so I don't know what they're doing these days. If you're in their area, I'd recommend contacting them about what they help they can offer you.

In my area, they recommend about 12 acres per cow-calf unit. We would generally stock at that rate and still have standing dry grass to feed the cows until after the first of the year. Then we'd feed hay until cool season grasses came out. The native grass is the basis of our growing program. it's wonderful stuff. But we did plant bermuda in pastures where erosion was a special concern and we built new ponds or repaired the ones that had washed out over the years. Our whole place slopes toward a creek that runs down the middle. If it wasn't for those ponds, we'd have all washed away by now.

You've got the phone #. When/if you get time, just call and we'll make arrangments for you to come look at our set-up.

PS: The first thing I'd do is get rid of the ponys. Horses are tough on grass.

[haypoint]

No one likes to hear they are doing a poor job. You admit you have poor soil that hasn’t had anything but weed seeds for 20 years. You admit you have erosion problems in a few spots. You admit that you overgrazed due to a shortage of rain. You admit to running cattle in 15 acres covered in cedar. Deer can survive on White Cedar, but I doubt cattle would and I don’t know what kind of cedar you have.
I’d have to agree with her. Running cattle on a cedar covered, weed infested, erodible poor soil is a bad thing. The help she offered is to get the cattle off that area. But, you don’t want to hear that. Fine.
You want to run cattle on land that isn’t suitable for cattle on several levels? You expect the “Experts” to advise you on how to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse?
As long as the cattle eat everything down to the ground, very little can be done to reduce erotion. If the soil won’t hold much moisture and your area is subject to drought, every edible plant I can think of will fail.
A dirt spillway will eventually blow out. It is bad soil management to allow this ticking time bomb to continue.
Rotational grazing that puts livestock on freshly seeded pasture is likely to fail. This is especially true on poor soil and a lack of water. Are these other fields open ground or “covered in Cedar trees”?
Watering livestock in a pond can be a bad land use practice. Manure runs into the pond, soil is washed into the pond, etc. Better to keep livestock out of the pond, pump water from the pond to each of the pasture segments in your rotational grazing plan. Just move the water tank around.
You asked “ What does she think I’m doing now?” I think that’s clear, too. She thinks you are contributing to soil erosion and the first thing you need to do is get the cattle off of it.

[ramiller5675]

Removing cattle from a cedar infested pasture won't improve anything and will probably make it worse. The cedars are going to keep growing (almost exponentially) and pretty soon it will be a cedar desert because the cedars prevent most rainfall from reaching the ground and shade out and prevent anything from growing beneath them. With no ground cover, when a big rain does come, it washes all the topsoil out from under the cedars.

So, the cedars are causing the erosion, not the cattle. When the agent tells her to remove the cattle because they are causing the erosion, she isn't seeing the whole picture.

At least in my part of OK, dirt spillways are the norm and pipe spillways are rare. Water rarely goes over the spillway because the water level in the pond is "regulated" by evaporation in the summer. That's why it is called an emergency spillway.

[genebo]

I use cedar wood for lots of projects around the farm because I have so much of it. This came about because my goats, and to some extent my Dexters, eat the bark off of cedar trees. It's one of their favorite foods. This girdles the tree, killing it.

Cut down on the number of cattle, and throw in some goats. Eliminate 1200# of cattle and replace them with 1200# of goats.

Keep on with your recovery efforts. Let this be a bonus. For an additional bonus, find a drought tolerant seed that your cattle don't digest (I use lespedeza) and feed it to your cattle. They'll deposit it pre-fertilized.

Use wheat as a winter crop where the cattle won't be grazing. If established in the fall, it will grow roots all winter long, maybe reaching 3' deep. In the spring, you can graze it and the roots will remain behind as water channels from the depths. It can make a lot of difference the next year.

Soil tests. Soil tests are sooo important. Every kind of grass has it's own favorite ph that it likes. Find out what your soil ph is and pick a grass to suit. It's a lot easier than tryng to change the ph of the soil.