scoured calf~ when to give up?

[Cheryl aka JM]

SO I brought home two calves a week ago today. Picked out to nice strong ones with a strong suckle reflex. Thursday morning put them on my cow with her calf~ the blk/white calf was sort half hearted about it but the brown calf was gung ho gonna have breakfast! Woo Hoo! Friday morning blk/white calf runny poop, brown calf not looking as good. I got Draxxin, Nuflor and Banamine for them and I gave each a sustain bolus. Saturday they both looked ok, not great but ok. Sunday both calves dull, the brown calf scouring badly. Monday I got another antibiotic (don't know what that one was got it from the vet in a syringe) and gave both calves 2 sustain bolus each (sustain says use on older calves but my vet said use it so I did). Tuesday blk/white calf looking good, brown calf not feeding still scouring I began tube feeding him electrolyte. This morning Wednesday calf alive but looks bad. Not dehydrated, in fact the cuss pee'd all over me! But lethargic, will not stand, will not eat. I took him to the vet who said he wasn't going to make it, said he's shut down and going septic and suggested euthanize. Well...thats more money I don't need to be spending so I said I'd come home and take care of it with a 22.......

I haven't taken care of it. I've been giving him electrolytes (re-sorb) with pepto bismal and goat nutridrench mixed in every hour. I gave him a 3cc vitamin B-12 and 2 different shots of 2cc banamine each. I bought some medicated milk replacer (tetracyline) and put that down him about an hour ago ~He will not even try to drink, everything I'm putting down him I"m tubing into him and he is not struggling about it. I'm thinking about giving him some Pen G LA because I have some in the fridge. I *Think* he looks a TINY bit better~ but he still won't stand up and he is still leaking runny yellow poop. When I force him to stand he pee's so his kidneys are working. His skin does not tent, his eyes are not sunken.

Keep trying?
Shoot him and get it over with?
When would you give up?

[Cheryl aka JM]

Forgot to add~ temp this morning at vet 99F low. When I got him home I put him out in the sun, took his temp around noon was 103.3 so I moved him to the shade, temp holding around 102 the last several hours. When I looked out at him just now he did pick up his head and look at me. That was nice, easier to tell if he's dead or not when he moves.

[farmgirl6]

Cheryl, vet told me to leave Annie to put donw, that she was done for, in a coma, laying in the back of my hummer, non responsive, barely breathing, I said hell no hook up the IV and I will take her with me. She made it...I say keep fighting...

[VaFarmer]

Ya don't give up till it's over. I've had a couple that wasn't sure they'd make it to the next day, and after a couple of days bounce back. I've used the vet as a last resort on a couple of calfs and had 2 die, now I take them to vet early like you have and nurse them along after they've had there best dose of medication. Doing better with surviours now, but the time watching them and wondering is a pain. I'm planning on this groub being my last batch of bottle babies, 20 calfs now so just wait and watch them grow.

[lamoncha lover]

I am not a cow person. But when i raised goats I got sucked into saving one that never should have been saved. I kept dumping money into it at the vet and before you know it I had over $300 into a lousy lil buckling. Then I had to have him euthanised. More $. I would do things a lot differently if the same scenario presents itself.
That being said,,,I would not give up on trying as long as it was not major expenses. If i could treat at home I would continue. I just wouldn't sink more vet fees or major costs into it.
It's hard to watch them sink. Only you know really when it is enough

[lasergrl]

Are you using anything to gel the scours? That stuff works great. He wont stand up untill the liquid stops pouring. I like "deliver" the best, but tractor supply sells "revitalyte gelling"

[Cheryl aka JM]

Wow
Just wow!

I put him in a dog crate in the garage last night because it was to be chilly~ I expected him to be dead by morning. I checked him several times and he was breathing but no reactions like all day yesterday. At 6am I checked~ and he bellowed at me! I nearly wet myself! He had wet himself~ wow what a stench in that crate! I pulled him out of there...and he stood up! Wobbly and I had to help him the first several steps (now I stink too) but up and walking. As soon as he got his feet under him he start bellowing and heading to the pen where Boss the momma cow I was grafting him to and the other two calves are. And Boss was bellowing back! It was like watching an afternoon special with mother and son re-united! LOL! Only I didn't let him in with her. I don't know whats wrong with him and he wouldn't drink the bottle I offered him. So I put him in a dog kennel (10X10 he doesn't have to wet himself in there like in the small crate) the kennel is adjacent to the pen Boss and the calves are in and there is a LOT of bellowing going on. Though he did calm down some when I let the LGD he knows in the kennel with him~ Boss hasn't. She WANTS that baby and is being VERY vocal about it. I tube fed 1 quart of the medicated milk replacer to the calf. In an hour I'll try again with the bottle with the other quart in it. I'm not sure what to do now~ I really didn't think he would survive I just didn't want to shoot him and ...well to be honest I didn't want to dig a hole big enough to bury him, and I didn't want to lose the money I had already put into him without trying every last thing I could think of.

I've not seen any scours out of him this morning yet. I'll watch. When it gets a bit warmer I'll wash him (stinks!) and play it by ear from there. Maybe I'll pick up some oxytetracyline (the med in the MR I gave him) and give him bolus's or shots that way so he can go back to boss to eat if he looks better this afternoon.

I can't believe he is alive
Wow

[Cheryl aka JM]

No more bellowing and he was laying down again when I went out with the second quart of medicated MR, but he did look more alert than yesterday. I forced him to stand up, took so doing but he did eventually stand. Had a scour episode~ grey and slimy looking this time. Thats better~ yesterday yellow slightly thickened water just leaked out of him, today he actually appeared to be intentionally moving his bowel.

I forced him up and tubed him the other quart of medicated MR~ he would not drink it. I gave him 2cc Banamine and he did flinch~ yesterday he didn't flinch when I gave him a shot.

Another hour and I'll try electrolytes in a bottle again. Maybe with a corrid drench. He's not quite old enough for cocci....but I'm trying the shotgun approach here.

[Oakshire_Farm]

For me when they start scouring that bad, how hard I fight depends on how much $$ I have invested in the calf..... I know that sounds really hard, but right now dairy bull calves are free. I am one of the very few people that will take them and if farmers call me and I say no, they just shoot them. So right now, I am not going to sink a bunch of time effort and $$ into saving one, when I can go pick up a replacement for nothing. If I pay for the calf, I will do all I can to get them up and going again. But sadly with dairy calves, I think some just have a death wish and all the fighting that we do to try and save them does not work sometimes. I think the biggest part of it is if they got the right amount of colostrum. I have spoke to my vet about calves before and he says the same thing, sometimes if it seems hopeless, just put them down, because there is a good chance they did not get adequate colostrum, and even if they do survive, they will go down again.

Good luck, glad to hear you won the fight!

[Cheryl aka JM]

Well he's not dead yet, but he's not better either. He stands, he bawls, he struggles to avoid me and my very annoying shots and feedings, but he does not eat on his own. I have been offering the bottle at every opportunity, forcing it in his mouth praying he would eat, but every time I have to tube feed him instead. He's had more vitamin b-12, more banamine~ another shot 5 min ago hoping if I give that time to take effect then he will nurse. I had a Dr appt yesterday in town so I was going to have to do the evening feeding very late. I just went ahead and skipped it hoping by this morning he would actually be hungry. Nope.

Since I was in town yesterday I was able to get some of the revitalyte gelling~ I'll try that this afternoon. He is not scouring as badly but he still has loose, runny, nasty smelling mucusy looking bowel movements. My friend Carol went to the vet on Thursday (I was embarrassed to admit I was trying to save the calf rather than be the tough lady I claim to be and get rid of the problem so carol did it for me) She got him another nuflor shot and had the vet check a fecal on him~ nothing. No good reason for him to be this sick~ but now his nose is running ~two doses of nuflor and one of draxxin in him already and he's just two weeks old. I've probably aspirated him at some point with all the tube feeding.

I'm beginning to suspect it may in fact be something I can't fix~ and at this point I don't know what to do with him but just keep tubing him.

[Cheryl aka JM]

Oh~ and I do actually have quite a lot of money invested in him now. I drove 3 hours to get him~ 3 hours back so half a tank of gas $30 (I picked up two calves that day so only half of the $60 tank of gas should be his), I paid $125 for him (seller informed me when I got there that the price had gone up from $100 to $125~ AFTER I drove the three hours to get there) Then all the medications and medicated milk replacer in him now. Not counting my time and my vet having only charged me for meds not for his time or for the fecal he did~ I'm about $200 or maybe a little more into this calf at this point. I didn't want to give up when I was only $155 into him (price plus gas) every day I put more meds $$ and time into him I get a little deeper in.

[Kazahleenah]

Originally Posted by farmgirl6

Cheryl, vet told me to leave Annie to put donw, that she was done for, in a coma, laying in the back of my hummer, non responsive, barely breathing, I said hell no hook up the IV and I will take her with me. She made it...I say keep fighting...

I had a similar experience. A "friend" brought a calf to me in that shape... and he made it. We called him "DC" first it stood for "Dead Calf"... then, when he pulled through, it stood for "Darned Calf"

I say keep trying.

[Cheryl aka JM]

We already have a DC~ D@*#!d Cat~ stuck so we call her DC. Glad to hear your DC is doing well.

That revitalyte gelling stuff~ it may work on a calf that will nurse~ it actually smelled pretty good when I was mixing it up. But don't try to tube feed that stuff. Wow~ would have been easier to nail jello to a tree. Stuff is the consistency of Snot, will not flow through a feeding tube with 16 hands to hold the calf, the tube, the bottle and the wall (cuz your gonna fall down when you or the calf start sliding in the spilled snot stuff) and if you happen to get any of the snot stuff on the tube itself....well good luck not losing that stupid thing! Wow~ I'm not gonna try that again. I don't think ANY of it is in the baby~ but a lot of it is EVERYWHERE else!

[CJBegins]

You might try giving him probiotics to repopulate his gut. I would keep up with the B12 shots and everything else you are doing. He is a tough cookie. One thing that I tried once that surprised me how well it worked was subcutaneous infusion of lactated ringers. It wasn't very expensive, infused into 4 different areas around the neck and before the liter was completely infused the calf was really perking up and was ready to go and that was the turning point of his recovery. You might talk to your vet about trying it. If you can give a sq shot you can give a sq iv. Good luck to you. Carla

[lasergrl]

Lol. Guess I should have warned you. You have to mix it about 1 second before jamming the tube down there or you are right. It will work if you are fast. I made that mistake the first time too!

[kalmara]

Try putting a few large spoons of yoghurt in the milk.
I've found this works well.

[Cheryl aka JM]

I have actually tried live active culture yogurt for the probiotics before I found the medicated milk replacer. But it won't do any good to put probiotics in him at the same time I am putting antibiotics in him so I'm holding that idea for later. The MR says to use it for at least 7 days and I don't want to give up on it before it can do whatever it's gonna do.

I haven't seen any scours yet this morning but he was still scouring yesterday. I did get approx 1 qt of the revitalyte gell into him (that was another rodeo!) and I put two more sustain 3 bolus's in him yesterday as well as the Medicated MR, the B-12 shots and the Banamine shots. He has started drinking water on his own~ but won't drink that MR no matter what~ in a tube or not in the calf is his opinion of that! He's getting stronger~ if he doesn't eat on his own pretty soon we will have to start seeing how hungry he gets cuz it will be really counter productive to his health if he actually succeeds in knocking me over on him when I"m trying to hold him and tube him.....would just be a greasy spot then.

[Cheribelle]

I had a Jersey calf one year that I had to tube almost every time. Finally I put him in the yard and said he'll either eat or die. I was That Tired and out of options. He did eat, and survive, but never thrived. Last sale barn Jersey for me.

[topside1]

Cheryl you have a pm

[SilverFlame819]

I say if it's not costing you a bunch, keep going. What you're doing is obviously keeping him alive, and if he's getting stronger, that's a good thing.

If the bills start to eat you out of house and home and it's costing you more to treat him that it would to just buy a new one, that's when I'd think twice about it.

But hey, he's alive. He sounds like a fighter. Why not try?