something i don't understand

[johnson]

when speaking about bottle calves, if there is diarrhea,then you give electrolytes. if there get off their feed, u tube them. but this tubed feeding doesn't go to the milk stomach but the rumen, where the feeding ferments and causes acidosis and diarrhea. which is mostly what you were trying to cure anyway. so really the treatment "can" make the problem worse. then what? diarrhea necessitates eletrolytes but a calf that is weak won't eat so u tube him. its a circle.

[gone-a-milkin]

johnson, are you having a sick calf?

Tube feeding is a way of getting some fluid into them.
It beats dehydration, in my experience.

What is this 'milk stomach' you are talking about?

[sammyd]

he's referring to the abomasum.

I've never heard that getting milk in the rumen causes any of those problems. In fact, according to this http://www.merricks.com/tech_bloat.htm says consistent milk in the rumen causes hard stools.

[gone-a-milkin]

Thanks sammyd, that is a great article.

[johnson]

here's an article.http://www.calfnotes.com/pdffiles/CN113.pdf and i've read the same in other places. thanks for the replies. yes i have a sick calf.2 week old bottle fed jersey holtsein cross. my others are doing fine after their bouts with diarrhea. she does not seem to respond to anything. she still drinks her bottle. but lethargic any other time, matching the symptoms of acidosis.wobbly, drunken looking walk,chewing nipple. so we tubed the electrolytes 3 times a day. shes staying alive but not improving. i was worried she getting worse or not improving because we were tubing her at the times she would not eat. thus having the fermentation in the rumen causing the acidosis and the accompanying symptoms. the diarrhea seems to come and go( one day good next day loose or water then good again, we are using some kaeopectate at times)she just doesn't seem to be perking up.

[springvalley]

Johnson, I hate to make a man resort to old time methods, but do you have your own chickens. If you do (or get some from a neighbor) take and give two eggs a day to your calf, the yokes act as a boost for the immune system. But they have to be eggs from your farm if you have them, as the chickens pick up the good anti bodies from your farm. Also put a package of unflavored Knox jello in the milk for several feedings. This should help and keep up the electrolytes. > Thanks Marc

[ozark_jewels]

And the best way to beat dehydration in a sick calf is to use lactated ringers under the skin. Tubing is not as effective and for a novice can be difficult to do right.

[johnson]

if tubing is too difficult for the novice then what is an IV? I find tubing to be pretty simple, my question is it's effectiveness, or is it counterproductive?

[springvalley]

It is not counterproductive, it is better than the calf not getting anything.I had one several years ago that if I hadn`t tubed him , he would have died for sure. > Thanks Marc

[haypoint]

Not sure I understand. are you tube feeding milk or tube feeding electrolites?
If too much milk causes scoures/diarreia, the calf looses hydration, so you give electrolites. If you poke a tube down the calf and give too much milk, seems the problem would recycle itself.
Isn't increased H2O w/ salt and baking soda going to keep up the body fluids while you reduce the feed/milk intake?

[johnson]

as far as what info i have read i am doing what i'm supposed to do execpt an iv.she gets her normal milk with 2 to 4 qt. of electolytes in between. some times if she wouldn't eat the electorlytes(she always drinks her milk) she gets tubed. maybe shes just not going to make it. thanks.

[haypoint]

johnson, you've told us exactly how much electrolytes you give her, but what is the amount of milk?
Calves will generally drink all their milk, plus they'll drink another gallon if available. How big was this calf and how often and how much milk were you feeding?
IMHO, most calves die because newbies over-feed their "hungry" calves.

[CarolT]

Lactated ringers under the skin is called subq (means subcutaneous, sub=under, cutaneous=skin) not IV which means intravenous (intra=into, venous=vein). To put it in subq, pull up a little skin, stick the needle into the skin you pulled up and allow the fluids to flow. Much easier than trying to hit the esophagus. JMO YMMV

I've done quite a bit of rehydrating subq and very little tubing, I feel more confident with subq

[johnson]

oooo i did not see anyone refer to the lactated ringers being given sq. yes i can do that also. i'd only seen it referenced as an iv app.thanks. shes still alive though i don't know how. she gets 2qt. twice a day milk. jerseyxholstien @2weeks.

[kycrawler]

Sounds like your actually pumping too many fliuds into a 2 week old calf . If the calf is eating 2 bottles a day freely and the neck skin doesnt tent when you pull it up she isnt dehydrated . Try cuting back on the electrolytes to 2 qt per day max with the 2 bottles . We raise hundreds of bucket calves and loose very few . From what your describing i would give 3 cc of baytril 3 cc of prevail and cut down to 2 feedings of 2 qt of milk replacer per day only give electrolytes if she is dehydrating . In the calves water bucket i would put 2-3 cups of sugar 1/2 cup salt and 1/2 cup baking soda . your mileage may vary but that usually works for us

[ozark_jewels]

I have revived many *severely* dehydrated animals(one a 1200 lb cow that almost bled dry after tearing a vein open), and have always used lactated ringers subq. Very easy. Yes, I use an IV kit, but thats only because its easier to give large amounts with an IV kit, than with syringes.
Attach the IV to the bag, the insert need under the skin. Makes nice big bubbles that the animal will absorb amazingly fast.
First time I saw my vet/boss do this with a frozen, almost dead newborn calf, it was the closest thing I'd seen to a miracle since my first milk fever case.

[CarolT]

Yes, those fluids can make a world of difference. My pet skunk didn't absorb them, because her kidneys had shut down If they don't absorb the fluid bubbles, it's a really bad sign. Also, vet told me it's not a bad idea to make a couple of different places if you're giving them a lot. Good luck!