I have another - city gal moving to the country question

mommathea · #1 05/23/11, 12:24 PM

I wrote a little while back about seeing a calf just born and asking how old, minute wise it was.
So we have been back to 'our' property several times now, and 3x the cattle have been on our property. We are buying 5 acres, there is a 5acre lot next to ours and the people who own it is letting another guy who lives in a 1acre lot on the other side of them run the cattle on their 5acres.

Now there is 5 'cows/steers' and 2 calves. We have 4 young children under 8yrs old. Each time we've stumbled across them the mommas have made it very clear that we're not on their good side, and we've backed off and got out of there.
We talked to the neighbor who owns the land beside us and they said that they've never seen the cattle on our land before now - this is the first year they've gotten out. And reportedly they had gotten them back on their property and fixed the fence last week. But yesterday they were back. We really don't mind them there, but their starting to ruin the front pasture a little - where we're going to be keeping chickens and goats in the near future.
The fence between them and us is NOT hot. We'd rather not put up and electric fence yet - we really don't have the time or finances right way- and the fence is 4wires and a barbwire across the top. We did not find the break yesterday, but our pasture is pretty overgrown at the moment.

When we take posession of the property next month. How do we graciously ask them to fix the fence, and to keep the cattle on their property without ruining neighborly relations - we don't want to be the newcomers coming in and making the rules, but we don't want our pasture messed up, and we want the kids to be able to roam around without unneeded danger.

oregon woodsmok · #2 05/23/11, 01:49 PM

Just a guess. The owners of the cattle are not concerned about their cattle getting free food from land where no one is there. You can hope they will be more responsible once you move to the property. The owner of the cattle does not own the 5 acres he is grazing, so he is going to be slow to spend money on fences.

What I would do is to tell the owner of the 5 acres that the cow threatened your young children. That should tune the land owner right up, thinking about potential lawsuits.

If the owner of the cattle will not fix the fences, then you are going to have to put up your own fence, strong enough to keep cattle out. Or you can send a written notice to the owner of the cows that he is welcome to rent your pasture for $100 per month per cow, billed by the 24 hour period or part there of. Then send him a bill whenever the cattle are on your land. He'll figure out how to keep them home.

Narshalla · #3 05/23/11, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregon woodsmok

Just a guess. The owners of the cattle are not concerned about their cattle getting free food from land where no one is there. You can hope they will be more responsible once you move to the property. The owner of the cattle does not own the 5 acres he is grazing, so he is going to be slow to spend money on fences.

What I would do is to tell the owner of the 5 acres that the cow threatened your young children. That should tune the land owner right up, thinking about potential lawsuits.

If the owner of the cattle will not fix the fences, then you are going to have to put up your own fence, strong enough to keep cattle out. Or you can send a written notice to the owner of the cows that he is welcome to rent your pasture for $100 per month per cow, billed by the 24 hour period or part there of. Then send him a bill whenever the cattle are on your land. He'll figure out how to keep them home.

This, and -- buy the supplies and ask the neighbor to teach you how to repair the fence. That way, you know it will get fixed, you will know how it fix it int the future, and you've started the neighborly relationship in a good, friendly way -- you, the city gal, are establishing that you don't know everything, but you are willing to learn, and you are, at the same time, not willing to be a doormat.

RedDirt Cowgirl · #4 05/23/11, 03:33 PM

Oregon and Narshalla both make good sense, but those folks are going to be your neighbors, they could be following traditions in good faith. (They probably thought that pasture needed to be grazed down, but not have the attention to make sure it's not overdone.) When you introduce yourself, let them know you want to manage the pasture for grazing, not take it out of production. And that you're worried about keeping your kids safe around the cow-calf pairs, not that they've "been threatened." Frankly, that would make you sound like hopeless idiots and you'll be smeared forever as the story makes its rounds. They'll know the score. Be specific about the number of goats and do your homework now about how many the ground can sustain. They'll respect you for farming, but not if you start by just throwing up electric fencing or threatening to send them a bill. Ask for their advice on getting a good dog that won't cause trouble. Good country neighbors are priceless. Wouldn't it be nice for them to come to love your kids instead of resenting them?

P.S.: When you go visiting, presenting a jar of preserves you made yourself is a tradition that will endear you, even if its just applesauce.

mommathea · #5 05/23/11, 04:03 PM

Thanks everyone. Eventually we'll have our land fenced with Goat/sheep fencing, but for now we need to get the land cleaned up so we can get to the fencing. It's a foreclosure. Our land was used as a horse pasture for 1 horse, and it wasn't taken care of towards the end..
The people who own the 5acres next to us are and older couple, and the gentleman is disabled with Agent Orange. His wife does all she can, so she thought letting the other neighbor run his cattle on their pasture would help keep the pasture down without having to hire someone to brush hog it.

We want to get off on the right foot for sure. I'll be baking them a couple loaves of bread or a pan of cinnamon rolls for sure. We had to empty our pantry (ie use it up) before the move or I'd be bringing them some canned goods. Our house sold quickly and now we're living with my husbands folks till we can close on our property.

Another concern is that we have a black lab mix, we had her out on the property yesterday and she went into major protection mode when she saw the cows and with our kids there. She's protective of her family. I'd hate for her to attack, or to be kicked, or shot for trying to protect her family. She'll be on a tie out till we can fence of the back yard area for her, we're responsible with her - she's just never been introduced to live stock. She's been a good guard dog for our chickens and can be left unattended with them.

RoyalValley · #6 05/23/11, 04:47 PM

Not sure what your laws are, but in Colorado, it's a 'fence-out' state. Which means if something is on your property, it's your responsibility to fence it out, not the other way around. It's kind of goofy, but it might be good to know what your state laws are for that.

Timberline · #7 05/23/11, 04:59 PM

RoyalValley is right, some states are open range and it is the land owner's responsibility to fence off their property to keep stock out.

sweetwaterbob · #8 05/23/11, 05:12 PM

As Royal Valley correctly states, some states are known as open range, meaning you have the reponsibility to keep other livestock off your property. Colorado is one of them. I had thought MO was too for some reason.

In response to some of your other questions...

- Judging by your response about how the cows acted when you approached it sounds as if you are not familiar with cows. Momma cows with calves can be very protective and dangerous, especially to those unfamiliar with cows.

- Your black lab - If there's any chance at all your dog may approach cows or get protective...keep your dog inside or on a leash until it has had a chance to become familiar with the livestock. The cow will most likely win if you don't, and all it takes is once. We have labs and they're great around our cows, but they know what they can and can't do. Labs are not herding dogs but they are smart enough to be taught their boundaries with livestock. Some dogs never learn, labs are not among these.

sweetwaterbob · #9 05/23/11, 05:20 PM

Oops, looks like Chaulk Creek beat me to at least part of my response.

cowkeeper · #10 05/23/11, 05:29 PM

Here is a link to Missouri livestock fencing laws:

http://aglaw.missouri.edu/fencing_faqs.htm

(This may not be up-to-date but gives a lot of information on the variables.)

Added: IMO, the cattle need to be fenced off your newly purchased property. You shouldnt have to worry about the safety of your children, on your own land. Does the owner of the cows know there will be new owners taking possession? Find out the laws for your county, and you will know how to proceed. Be nice, but don't feel you need to apologize for wanting to have full use of your own land. It sounds like the cattle are very used to being there, and it will take a good fence to change their habits.ck

mommathea · #11 05/23/11, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetwaterbob

- Judging by your response about how the cows acted when you approached it sounds as if you are not familiar with cows. Momma cows with calves can be very protective and dangerous, especially to those unfamiliar with cows.

- Your black lab - If there's any chance at all your dog may approach cows or get protective...keep your dog inside or on a leash until it has had a chance to become familiar with the livestock. The cow will most likely win if you don't, and all it takes is once. We have labs and they're great around our cows, but they know what they can and can't do. Labs are not herding dogs but they are smart enough to be taught their boundaries with livestock. Some dogs never learn, labs are not among these.

We didn't approach them...the way our property is set up, they were behind a growth of shrub trees, and a rise of land, and they were quite. So we surprised them as much as they surprised us.
We backed off and stood aways off from them, and didn't go towards them once we saw them.
I've been around a family milk cow quite a bit in the past, but have never owned them, and have never been around a cow with a calf with her. I'm not intimidated by them, but my kids aren't country smart.

I'm not sure what our dog would do if she was on her own, and spotted a cow. But if she was with us, she'd go into protective mode. As soon as she saw them she growled and lunged towards them - she was on a leash with me holding her at the time.

rancher1913 · #12 05/23/11, 07:49 PM

some states even if they are a fence out state have laws that if one party wants a fence both parties have to split the cost 50/50. colorado does have this law even though it open range and I used it to deal with a crap neibhor-- he was ----ed but had no choice but to pony up for the fence. does your state have a brand inspectors office, they will have the best advice.

sweetwaterbob · #13 05/24/11, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowkeeper

Here is a link to Missouri livestock fencing laws:

http://aglaw.missouri.edu/fencing_faqs.htm

(This may not be up-to-date but gives a lot of information on the variables.)

Added: IMO, the cattle need to be fenced off your newly purchased property. You shouldnt have to worry about the safety of your children, on your own land. Does the owner of the cows know there will be new owners taking possession? Find out the laws for your county, and you will know how to proceed. Be nice, but don't feel you need to apologize for wanting to have full use of your own land. It sounds like the cattle are very used to being there, and it will take a good fence to change their habits.ck

Ah, nothing like a good read on fence law to make a fella angry!

Fences have been a source of contention since the 1800's. There's an old saying that goes - "Good fences make for good neighbors". I'm pretty sure one of the same lawyers who wrote the fence laws wrote that statement too.

There's another old saying out here in the west - "Whiskey is for drinkin' and water's for fightin'". I reckon they should have expanded that last part to include fences. There's been many a fued over a fence.

The way many of the laws are written it's almost an automatic dispute between two neighbors when the subject comes up. "Well, I wouldn't have built the fence that way", or "That fence wouldn't have cost me that much!" The list goes on.

I see some things in the MO law that is particularly troublesome. One example would be the section on squatter's rights. You build your fence short of a property line and some yayhoo neighbor brings his fence up to yours (and you don't catch it)...the property on the other side of your fence becomes his! We did that with one section of our fence just to avoid having a neighbor have to pay (he was down on his luck at the time). Fortunately the laws here in CO don't read that way. In any case though, the laws are very matter of fact about boundary fences; you build it, they pay...no exceptions (pretty neighborly, huh?). Personally, I'm not real fond of the idea about being able to spend another man's money, nor another man mine.

Fortunately, we've built all of our fences rock solid and are prepared to maintian 100% of them. Colorado doesn't have the right/left rule like MO, our laws are even sillier still. Colorado statutes say you don't own 50% of the fence, you own 50% of 100% of the fence (which is quite a bit different). This means that all fence costs, and repairs, must be shared equally regardless of the location on the fence. This forces you to have constant conversations with your neighbors about fences.

In any case, good luck to ya dealing with the neighbor's cows. I'm sure everything will work out fine for you. You'll have it all figured out soon enough. In the meantime just keep that pup and those little ones away from the cows until they get settled in.

mary,tx · #14 05/24/11, 11:04 AM

Maybe I'm the only one thinking this, but I'm thinking maybe there wasn't a break in the fence, but they were just let out to graze your pasture on purpose. Our neighbor's cattle came over here once and it took a few days after the man knew they were here before he bothered taking them home and repairing the fence. The guy leasing our pasture for his cattle was not too pleased about the neighbor knowingly leaving his here for a few days to graze.

I'd get the guy's phone number from the couple next door to you, and call him every time you see his cattle over, as soon as you see them. Be nice, but let him know his cattle are out. Hopefully he'll quickly get used to the fact that the land is now occupied and not keep taking advantage of it.

Then I'd prioritize the fencing budget.

emeraldcowgirl · #15 05/29/11, 10:28 AM

Just a quick reply about your dog, just know that if your dog attacks the cow and injures her in any way (even if the cow ends up killing your dog) you might be responsible for paying for the injured cow. The farmer I work for has shot several dogs who somehow got into his pasture and were chasing his cows. I agree with everyone here when they say to keep your dog inside or in a run.