hay in a beyond organic situation

[sticky_burr]

nw if i am tying to run a farm beyond organic, ie everything even IF allowed in USDA organic should be natural. if i have to buy hay , good chance given the climate how stringent should i be?
sludge spread on the fields this seems bad especially since USDA says it doesnt need to be tested or composted. is this ok should i only allow tested or composted or should this not be allowed.
chemical fertilizers?
plastic wrapped bales should this be dis-allowed?
basically i want to do stuff as best i can for my animals and who ever eats them or drinks of them. if i could feed only fresh green grass year round i would but i dont think its possible. ya know

also .. is there any way to decrease hay costs? like pre paying, at a reasonable price) for x amount (between the minimum and average amount needed) at the begining of the season for late harvest or in the winter for the next winter.. so that i am not subjected to price jumps and it will decrease any debt/ spread cash flow to a more neeeded time of year for the farmer... if you get what i mean
thanks for any input into the riddle

[DaleK]

If you're trying to run it "beyond organic" whatever that means, it would clearly be hypocritical to buy hay. You need to get rid of any animals you can't feed in a given year.

[ramiller5675]

You say you want "beyond organic" hay so that you can produce "beyond organic" beef which I assume you will try to sell at a premium. But, you also want this premium grade "beyond organic" hay at a "reasonable price".

If you are expecting a premium price for your "beyond organic" beef, I would assume you would also be willing to pay a premium for some "beyond organic" hay.

Besides that, "beyond organic" is meaningless and means whatever you and your customers think it means.

[Cheryl aka JM]

"organic" is a very sticky buzz word. Anytime someone asks me if my animals are "Organic" I tell them absolutely not! They are pretty much natural~ but "Organic" is a government word that seems to me just means "Expensive."

[agmantoo]

What about all the pollution from the atmosphere. IMO it is not achievable. As natural as possible would be a better term.

[sticky_burr]

aye this is what i meant organic is now organic plus whatever unnatural addin and what ever processes the lobbyist decided to pay to get added in.

ofcourse it comes down to money, i could just buy what ever i can get my hands on and not worry about it, but more so is what i 'feel' or think is proper. and atlest it may be interesting and give things to think about on topic

agmantoo is good example i like his process and would of posted in his rotational thread but not really related. eleminate chem ferts in his case it was money and soil health not looking for any labeling opurtunity. its real nice i woould like to stock pile 4 month++ of grass but i doubt its possible

its not like i am trying to get the cheapest hay possible by any means. but the best value for what is needed and decide what is needed. if i had 17 spare acres or what ever i would make my own or leave enough for the 2-4 6? hold overs and breeders to dig up. but then it comes into equipment and time if i had more land i'd probally be stuck in the same spot with more animals.. but anyway i'll keep reading and see if anything comes up

[oregon woodsmok]

The government's definition of "organic" does not jive with mine. I can't use the word "organic" so I tell my buyer's "raised with the Mother Earth News methods", which by my definition is a lot more organic that government certified organic.

Farmer's are trying to make money, so they are not raising organic hay. They can't sell hay that is full of weeds or weevils or blister beetles. Maybe you can find someone with a small place that cuts and cures their meadow hay and doesn't spray.

I suggest that you grow and cure your own hay. Then you will be certain about what has gone into it.

[Creamers]

but "Organic" is a government word that seems to me just means "Expensive."

so I tell my buyer's "raised with the Mother Earth News methods", which by my definition is a lot more organic that government certified organic.

I agree - I'm actually doing a blog on the Organic hype nonsense - lol

I think you'd be best off to buy land and grow your own - in the long run, you'll be cheaper

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by sticky_burr

nw if i am tying to run a farm beyond organic, ie everything even IF allowed in USDA organic should be natural. if i have to buy hay , good chance given the climate how stringent should i be?
sludge spread on the fields this seems bad especially since USDA says it doesnt need to be tested or composted. is this ok should i only allow tested or composted or should this not be allowed.
chemical fertilizers?
plastic wrapped bales should this be dis-allowed?
basically i want to do stuff as best i can for my animals and who ever eats them or drinks of them. if i could feed only fresh green grass year round i would but i dont think its possible. ya know

also .. is there any way to decrease hay costs? like pre paying, at a reasonable price) for x amount (between the minimum and average amount needed) at the begining of the season for late harvest or in the winter for the next winter.. so that i am not subjected to price jumps and it will decrease any debt/ spread cash flow to a more neeeded time of year for the farmer... if you get what i mean
thanks for any input into the riddle

Well, organic is good, but organic hay is only going to be slightly better than conventionally grown hay. Provided it wasn't sprayed with anything, I wouldn't worry too much about the hay.

[springvalley]

I`m not going to touch this, I get in trouble about organic most of the time. I am as organic as I can be without the paper, and I grow hay without chemicals or spray. > Marc

[sammyd]

Organic is the only quantifiable description of anything out there. Like it or dislike it, it has rules that are enforced and it has checklists and schedules that must be followed in order to use the organic symbol. Everyone knows what organic is. I can tell folks that I am beyond organic because I do something and you can tell folks you are beyond organic because you do something else. I wouldn't trust anyone that came to me with some description like that.
Anything else like organic plus, natural, sustainable, or whatever you like has no legal definition, no way of assuring that anything you are told about it is true.

You can rail against the govt but the organic rules have been put in place and rewritten by organic producers. The govt is really only a watchdog and even most of the watching is done by places other than the govt.

As for the hay, plastic netting and plastic twine is allowed. As well as plastic wrapping to make baleage. Using plastic shouldn't be an issue other than disposing of it. It doesn't leach into the feed and the wrapped baleage can increase feed value over just putting it up as hay.
If you are really worried you could specify bales that are made using sisal twine only but not too many round roller guys use that, it rots way too quick.
Then you would have to specify what sort of seed was used and what sort of treatment it may have had before planting.

Personally being organic is tricky enough sometimes. I would not want to try being "beyond organic". Especially if I had to buy stuff in.

[fffarmergirl]

Have you all read Joel Salatin's book, Family Friendly Farming? He coined the term "beyond organic" - he doesn't mess with government certification, etc. He's beyond that, doesn't want to mess with the red tape and the expenses. He does things the old fashioned way, doesn't buy in unless he had to or it saves him time and $. He makes his living off his farm, so it's always open for people to visit.

[springvalley]

Originally Posted by sammyd;5012664.

If you are really worried you could specify bales that are made using sisal twine only but not too many round roller guys use that, it rots way too quick..

I use sisal twine for baling,(got a heck of a deal on some from a feed store that went out of business)I use it because it does rot away. I still have net wrap, and plastic twine I`m picking up from the fields from years of using the stuff. Sisal twine rots away and no trace of it after about a year. > Marc

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by springvalley

I use sisal twine for baling,(got a heck of a deal on some from a feed store that went out of business)I use it because it does rot away. I still have net wrap, and plastic twine I`m picking up from the fields from years of using the stuff. Sisal twine rots away and no trace of it after about a year. > Marc

That is my choice also. The plastic twine is also useless to tie stuff with, and the net is just a plain pain.

[Up North]

Beyond all the organic talk, you can usually get a better deal on hay if you buy right off the field during haying season. It saves the farmer time and money if he doesn't have to gather up the bales on the field and haul/pile them somewhere.

[sticky_burr]

Originally Posted by fffarmergirl

Have you all read Joel Salatin's book, Family Friendly Farming? He coined the term "beyond organic" - he doesn't mess with government certification, etc. He's beyond that, doesn't want to mess with the red tape and the expenses. He does things the old fashioned way, doesn't buy in unless he had to or it saves him time and $. He makes his living off his farm, so it's always open for people to visit.

lol never read his books i watched a couple interviews old fashioned way yup double breasted white turkey and cornish cross chickenz, as i recall those arent even allowed in organic? well maybe they are but they are far from natural breeding or even able to walk after a some months. but he does make money from something. and he said he bought in local GMO grain for his hogs. i dont care for it

Originally Posted by Up North

Beyond all the organic talk, you can usually get a better deal on hay if you buy right off the field during haying season. It saves the farmer time and money if he doesn't have to gather up the bales on the field and haul/pile them somewhere.

this is helpful indeed thanks

i am still concerned i could probally work with some one on a field but if i have had more land i would likely increase animal numbers. but chem fertilizers kill soil health in general and harness you to using it. put up 3 or 4 purple martin houses or pheobe shelfs under the eaves of the barn they will take out alot of bugs. sides if i had to hay i would need more time and more equipment for limited need (i hope). i have thought about planting the road/drive lol
although most hayers i use t work for were sketchy lol twice a year run like mad otherwise they dont want to do anything .. maybe i just worked for the wrong ones lol

[sammyd]

or even able to walk after a some months.

What a story.
If you have no experience it's best to keep quiet.
As a kid we always bought the cornish cross pullets because they were cheaper than cockerels and kept a couple dozen back as layers. Currently we have 6 of em that we bought in June and they get around as well as the brown layers.

but chem fertilizers kill soil health in general and harness you to using it

Another story.
Adding chemical fertilizer along with manure and leaving organic matter in the field or garden will not ruin the soil. They can coexist and make beautiful soil. Last spring I plowed 20 acres that had been manured for years along with chemical fert to make up the difference needed to grow a big crop. It was so rich and friable that I really didn't even to disc it. It just turned over and fell apart. The organic matter was over 3%.

There are ways of doing things and there are other ways of doing things. I have found it's best to keep an open mind.