How to tell age and a few other questions.

[wolffeathers]

I am fairly new to cows. Bought our first last July and was told it was a 5 year old Jersey. She calved September 8 and calved a beautiful black bull calf. He growing great, it's her I'm concerned about.

Please be gentle, because I love my animals(and very sensitive about them) and just want to make sure it's not something we're doing. She is in very poor condition, she was bony after calving but lately she's just been a mess. We've wormed her with safeguard and given probiotics. She gets her own round bale of coastal bermuda away from the other animals, she also gets a scoop of oats, a scoop of corn, a scoop of 17% goat pellets and a handful of Manna Pro Calf Manna. Last month we even bought a protein tub. If the weather even got remotely cold or nasty, we put her in a horse stall with all the hay(coastal bermuda) she could eat. We just cannot get this girl to put on weight and we are trying everything we know. She opened her stall door one night and sampled from the feed bins, but didn't gorge(thank God!), just sampled a few bites out of each and then was waiting outside her stall(much to our surprise) that morning. Wouldn't a starving cow have gorged on feed?

I know it's hard to put weight on a dairy cow, they are bony things. But I don't think she is putting it into her milk, because when she calved the most we have ever gotten from her was a gallon and a half. It was sweet, delicious milk. But we've stopped milking her hoping to let her gain weight and be better off in the long run.

We were told she was 5 years old. Her udder looks good, all 4 quarters function equally and she has never had any redness, heat, or hard parts to her udder.

Could it be that we were just sold a cow that was older? Are we not feeding her enough? All the feed combined in a 5 gallon bucket is half the bucket, does she need more? We have not milked her in a few months. Her calf stays fat and happy on the hay and some of the grain he steals from her(I've made sure he never runs her off, she still pushes him away if he gets too rowdy at the feed bucket). I'm desperately hoping we were just sold an older cow and it's not us mismanaging her. She is the only animal here that gets her own free fed bale and then half a bucket of grain a day. The horses only get hay and stay well maintained.

I have wanted a milk cow and was so thrilled when we got her, but I read other people get more milk on grass then what we've gotten on her best day with all that we feed. She is a commercial bred jersey and we were told she was 5, but something just isn't adding up. I'm wondering we purchased her from someone who picked her up at an auction and there's something wrong with her(age, disease?, etc???), we're just not catching.

Ideas, suggestions? How can I get an age on her? Am I not feeding enough? I read other people feed just grass or even corn, oats, and barley.(Our grain farmer doesn't have barley, just oats and corn)

Thanks all in advance from a very worried cow owner!

[topside1]

How about a photo? Age can be determined by looking at the teeth...Topside

I don't want a photo of the teeth.....Just the cow.

[topside1]

Worming with safeguard is a joke in the goatworld....I'm not sure about the dairy cow world...I know I don't use it....Topside

[myersfarm]

I would try something different then safeguard.....it could be thats what they used over and over again and it is not working on the bugs she has now.....YOU can tell by the teeth but she is to old to tell by that...she could be sick take her temp should be around 101.3

[springvalley]

She could be an older cow, she was at the auction for a reason. Sounds like you are feeding her ok. do you crack the corn or feeding it whole? You may want to get her tested for Johnes (wasting disease). And not all dairy cows are skinny, I have some that are, but others that are not. But I also don`t like to see a fat cow, thats just as hard on them. > Good Luck. Marc

[topside1]

If my memory is still working, isn't safeguard only effective against a few types of parasites...Use a wormer geared more toward cattle. Once again post a photo, maybe only you think she's underweight...

[copperhead46]

I don't know a lot about dairy cows, but with that much feed and care she should be in better shape. Maybe you could post some pictures of her. I would think that you should use a different wormer, I like Ivermectin, pour on, that might help. There are some diseases, like Johnes disease that can cause a lot of problems.
P.J.

[7thswan]

Do you live in a sandy area? If it's not age or parasites it could be her teeth. They get horribly worn and are painful to the cheek if sharp. This is usally an issue with horses,but I don't see any reason that it can't be the same with cows.

[genebo]

Contact your local extension agent for recommendations for a wormer that works. After a long period of use, the worms develop immunity to a wormer.

Around here, they say that all the worms that Safeguard can kill are already dead. The worms that are still alive aren't fazed by Safeguard.

Ivermectin is rapidly reaching that status. Overuse of Ivermectin has created populations of worms that are resistant. Cydectin is newer, and hasn't been abused as much, so may be more effective.

There's nothing wrong with using different wormers in series. You've already used Safeguard, now try one of the others, then try another one 3 days later.

Get a good estimate of your cow's weight and make sure you give a full dose. Light doses just help create resistant worms. Some wormers are being given at double or triple strength, but I'd certainly check with the extension agent or a vet before doing that.

There's really no substitute for a good vet. The vet can do a fecal count of worm eggs, to see if that is really what her problem is. A vet can also do a blood test for lots of other diseases and conditions. His trained eye will eliminate many possibilities right away. If it's apparent what is wrong, he'll have the medicine and be able to treat her instantly. Win, win!

Once you have her stabilized, make sure to give her a good balanced mineral. Again, check with the extension agent to see which minerals are short in your soils, and subsequently in the hat and grass. Buy a loose mineral that contains the ones you need.

It's easy to keep a healthy cow. Much easier than making a sick cow healthy again. Once you get her healthy, make sure she stays that way.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[wolffeathers]

Thank you all so much. I'll get a picture of her tomorrow when it's light out, she just looks horrible, even for a dairy. As I've said, we've been doing everything we know for her and I come here for help, so be nice when her see her. Tell the truth but be nice! (Can you tell I'm a little ashamed we haven't been able to help her much? I really care about my animals and hate that it might be something I'm doing or not doing).

I don't know that she came from the auction. I bought her from a man on his farm, she was in a pasture with a couple of hostiens who just calved. So I didn't get her at the auction, but that doesn't mean that the man selling her didn't get her from on and flipped her. He could only guess when she was due(was off by a couple months) and he said she was bred to either a jersey or a 'white bull' and her baby came out black.(everyone who's seen him said he's definitely an angus cross). This is the reason I'm thinking he may have bought her at the auction and flipped her as a homestead cow. She has 4-5 holes in her ears from ear tags, one of which was ripped out and shredded her ear. Could that be a sign she's been moved around a lot in life?

It is sandy here, but not so where we got her from in July. She is pastured seperate from the horses because they can eat the grass lower than she can, so she stays on her own side so she doesn't have to compete. It also helps keep the horses off her hay and feed(since they only get hay thrown to them).

I have injectable Ivomec that I could worm her with. Would that work, or should I get the pour on? I'm willing to get whatever will work. I know about rotating wormers with horses, it didn't occur to me that the safeguard may be ineffective. I couldn't find anything else approved for "lactating or breeding age dairy cows".

The corn is whole, it's the only way the farmer sells it. I could try and buy it cracked from the feedstore(it's just they sell it for more than $10 an 80-100lb bag), if it would help her.

Would she have Johnes even without diarrhea? Because her patties are beautiful(in the sense of patties of course).

We have been feeding Champions Choice loose mineral, but switched 2 weeks ago to Right Now Gold(the high mag formula for spring).

I'll have to find a cow vet. When we first brought her home, I called all the local vets(several times) just to get bloodwork done. The only one that agreed was the local pet(horse, dog, and cat) vet and even then they said if she gave any trouble they wouldn't do it. They only have horse stocks and then they changed their mind and wanted to draw the blood here in the stanchion(made out of 2X4s). She's a laid back cow to put up with me, and would do just about anything for an apple slice(always sliced to avoid choking), but I don't know how she'd do with someone sticking her for a blood draw. I tried to put her probios straight in her mouth(like horse dewormer) and she wouldn't have none of it. Luckily she wouldn't turn it down mixed in her grain. I do know a mobile horse vet that said they would attempt to stick her, after they find where to send it to be tested.(see what I have to deal with? At least she was trying, while the other wanted to charge $60 for the farm call and $60 for the second farm call to "read" the TB test, versus just letting me bring them the cow in the trailer.)

[southerngurl]

Oh just pull the blood yourself and send it in.

http://www.aghealthlabs.com/info/inn...p?nid=9&ID=803

While you can't accurately tell age from teeth after a certain age, a real old cow would have poor looking teeth.

[springvalley]

It would be better to have the corn cracked if you could, does the farmer have a grinder or anything? I sure feel bad for you guys that don`t have the Vets around like we do. > Marc

[genebo]

I keep wondering where you are. Here in Virginia, we have Southern States stores that sell Beef Commodity Blend for less than whole kernel corn. It's a blended feed, 14% protein, with some essential vitamins and minerals. It's a whole lot easier to chew than whole kernel corn.

I'm paying $5.95/50# if I buy a ton, or $6.95/50# in smaller quantities. Whole kernel corn was $8.02/bu ($7.16/50#) at the wholesale grain dealer.

Call your local dairies to see which vet they use. They'll probably have him on contract. He'll be good if the dairies use him, but he may not have a regular office.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[wolffeathers]

I'm in the sandhills region of NC. The few dairies we have are in and around Raleigh about 2-3 hours away(I've been looking! Thinking I might just need to get a heifer calf).

I know that TSC sales a Beef Cow feed for I think about $9 a bag. I will check back. I had my feedstore order a milk maker type of feed and it was $25 a bag!! When I compared it to the goat pellets, there were only minor differences and the goat feed I get for $9. I'll have to start the search for a cow savvy vet again, I think someone suggested one from a city 45 minutes away. If it comes down to that, I can put her in the horse trailer and see what the vet thinks.

If the goat feed and the beef cow feed cost about the same, is it better to feed her the beef cow feed at 14% or the goat feed at 17%(for all goats including those in milk).

I'll worm her with ivermectin this week. I'm glad to hear that we're not "starving" her, with her being my first I knew that sometimes they need more feed than some people expect, but reading the amount of milk some people get compared to the 1.5gallon we got from her right after she calved just didn't add up.

Here's another question. We are feeding her Right Now Gold minerals. It is about $24 a bag and I put a little bit out everyday to avoid it getting rained on(pooped in, spilled, etc). The bag says to feed a certain amount daily, but I know some free feed it. It smells like feed, so I'm worried she'll gorge on it if I set it out. She eats all that I put out(just started last week), I can't tell if it's maybe a clue to a deficiency or it just tastes good.

[southerngurl]

They won't overdose on it, the salt will stop them.

If you had salt starved animal they might eat too much too fast and throw off their electrolytes.

[wolffeathers]

Okay here are some pictures from today, right before feeding her. And then there is the random picture of "trouble"(not really named) her calf born September 8. He thought I was out there to take pics of him and couldn't stand not being in the spotlight.

So here she is. Bess our Jersey. I hate she looks like this. I'll be deworming her with Ivermectin and hoping that will help. I'll also work on findind a vet(or doing it myself) to have her tested for Johnes. (I haven't yet, because of lack of a vet and because she has never had diarrhea, but will definitely work on it)







So what do you think? Does she just look like an older dairy cow? She forever looks due(carries her belly low and even a little lopsided), I guess she's just stretched that way or maybe worms since Safeguard may not be working.

[southerngurl]

What did she look like when you got her? If she was underweight then, and pregnant and now came into milk for the calf, she may have not had much chance to get in better condition. Was she poor when you got her? How much was she milking?

She doesn't strike me as an old cow, but I'm not really a cow expert.

She looks just like my Elsie, minus about 150 lbs and horns.

Beet pulp and oils are good to put weight on once you get the underlying problem hopefully taken care of.

[matt_man]

I would read labels but if I remember correctly you are not supposed to use ivomectrin in dairy females that are breeding age or that are lactating. We use cydectin pour on for the girls.

She is a bit thin but I don't think that she is old. If she is old, she still has a nice high udder for an old cow. and FWIW, I don't think she looks ghastly thin but it would be nice to see her put on a bit of weight. Is she still nursing her calf?

I would worm her with a decent wormer and get her calf off of her and see if that helps.

And if the calf were Angus, he would be polled.

[myersfarm]

I agree hard to put weight on after there in milk ....but to me she should only be showing 3 ribs thats the look I like..some will not hold that and others will gain more....but you are feeding what i call more then she needs to gain weight...she looks good just needs a little weight

IT is nice that you are concerned about your cow..before she gets in really BAD SHAPE


I think the wormer might help...but would check on the Johnnes thing

[wolffeathers]

Okay, so I'll look into the cydectin pour on. I remember reading that Ivermectin wasn't labeled for lactating or breeding age dairy. It was why I used safeguard because that was labeled for dairy use.

((I thought if he was an angus cross he would have been polled because I thought that was dominant in F1. I was just having other folks tell me he was an "angus, I can tell you that right now" and when I questioned the horns they said "he could have got from his mom".. Doesn't matter, his destiny is the same either way. ))

She had her calf after we got her. The most we ever got off of her while milking was a gallon and a half, and that was the day after calving. From then on we were lucky to get a full gallon.