Dehorning

[southerngurl]

Is dehorning generally a bad thing to do on older cattle? Our new milk cow has horns and she knows it. She's not aggressive but defensive with them around her head. She also bopped the horse in the nose with them ha. We could also tip them but would rather her not have any at all. The vet offers "cosmetic dehorning" ($75), tipping ($4)and sawing ($25). Does anyone know what is involved in the "cosmetic" dehorning? I'm hoping for something that doesn't hurt.

[myersfarm]

I used a bander and they came off in 1 month blood less...not the cheap little bander but the big tube bander and gave a shot for tetines...worked on all the ones I did easy....if you want to do it I can give step by step steps......somebody around you might have one you can borrow...not sure about the cosmetic dehorning..what it would be ...but banding looks good to me on my milk cows

[southerngurl]

One of these? http://www.jefferslivestock.com/cali...IV/cp/0034971/

I've banded horns on goats a couple times and it went well. Is it hard to get it under the horn base? I'm trying picture how that thing works. I see they have a little metal piece, do you just get that tube started through it and use the thing to pull it tight or something? How much does it upset the cows? Will it hurt their production?

[myersfarm]

sorry never used that one it might work

here is the one I used I borrowed it

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/the-...IV/cp/0028429/

[myersfarm]

Is it hard to get it under the horn base ?

not for me thats why I said steps.....When first used i put over horns and tighten it up...that just seem to roll down the horn..the band was to big to go into the flesh...........then I put on horns and pulled on the bander hard that made the band smaller and it went into the flesh at the base of horn then I tighten it up and it worked great

[rancher1913]

we've used the calcrate bander on older cows with horns with very good luck. sawzall will work too but its a bit messy and there is a higher risk of problems. the bander does make the cows a bit testie for several days but no blood loss.

[lonelyfarmgirl]

I tried banding a horn on a couple goats, and it never worked quite right.

If you want those horns off, go with banding, otherwise, its kind of like cutting off a limb, just a few less nerves, and WOW the blood..

we don't dehorn the cows. yes, they know they have them, but like your horse will, they learn to move away from the dominant ones.

[arcticow]

Folks, I'm about to be REAL unpopular here but I would only dehorn a family cow if she was really using them without cause. A new-to-the-place cow who is just tapping with 'em to get her own space established, no; if I had to do it I'd wait till dry period.

[myersfarm]

arcticow...NOT UNPOPLAR with me....but seeing what my cows did with just the bands and a shot for tetanus........they did no even know after just a hour or two anything was going on.



but your are right about her being in a strange place she might settle down in a day or two

[arcticow]

It's like the arguments for and against bull beef; to each his own. Glad to hear bands work that well.

[francismilker]

If I did have an older cow that was slinging her head I'd vote on cosmetic dehorning. I've seen it done on show cattle and it's pricey. However, they are under conscience sedation when the procedure is being done and it's very effective. Sometimes price doesn't factor in when it's a family cow. Just do what you need to do and can afford.

[Oakshire_Farm]

I had my jersey done when she was 5ish. The vet did it. We put her right out whith Rompin. While she was down in the barn, the vet then gave her some ladicane as a nerve block in the temple. The vet then sawed off the horns. There was little to no blood! a few drops on one side and none on the other. He then used the iron and sealed up the hole. Then her gave her a reversal, and she was up and wondering what just happened.

I loved her horns! But when she was in heat she liked to jab me in the back with them, so off they came! I do not regret it one bit.

[Ronney]

Well, I read this thread earlier. I looked at my cows tonight. Of the 6 I am milking, 4 have their horns. Of the remaining two, one was bought in and had been dehorned before I got her, the other had hers removed because she lost them in transit and they grew back in towards her face. Of the remaining 3 cows that are presently dry, all have their horns. One is a Simmental/Jersey cross and has a magnificent spread of horns which I have no intention of removing.

As you may have gathered, I don't dehorn unless there is a problem with them that is going to affect their well-being such as curving back down and into the face or eyes. I have no problems with the horned cows picking on the dehorned cows and in fact a couple of the horned cows are at the bottom of the pecking order. Cows know they have horns and behave accordingly. I know they have horns and keep that distance between us. I am comfortable with horns - but then I am comfortable with my cows!

Cheers,
Ronnie

[Madsaw]

Well I am with Arcticow on this one. Let her get used to the place and she how she is then. Because no one has mention that jersey will sometimes bleed like stuck pigs even as young cattle getting dehorned. One of the vets thinks it due to a jerseys more high strung nature. We have switch to burning the horns off as calves to save teh problems. Also with old cattle the horn base is more pores and harded to get to veins to pull them to stop the bleeding. The hole in the skull would be huge on a horn that size and take along time to heal.
Bob

[springvalley]

Originally Posted by Madsaw

Well I am with Arcticow on this one. Let her get used to the place and she how she is then. Because no one has mention that jersey will sometimes bleed like stuck pigs even as young cattle getting dehorned. One of the vets thinks it due to a jerseys more high strung nature. We have switch to burning the horns off as calves to save teh problems. Also with old cattle the horn base is more pores and harded to get to veins to pull them to stop the bleeding. The hole in the skull would be huge on a horn that size and take along time to heal.
Bob

While I agree with you on some of this Bob, I don`t agree with all of it. I personaly don`t thick jersey`s are that high strung, at least mine aren`t. And if the cattle are dehorned on the right sign of the moon they won`t bleed near as much. I have had no more problem dehorning jersey`s as I have holsteins. I personaly would not dehorn an older cow, I have heard all kinds of bad stories about dehorning cows, they never bounce back after that and they never trust you again. My ywo cents, maybe a nickle, . >Thanks marc

[genebo]

Have you ever looked closely at a cow's horns? They grow from the base, so the ends are the same ends they had when they were calves. You can see rings around their horns that tell the story of their years. A bad year makes a narrowing of the horn. Good years make smooth, slick horns.

A cow came here to be bred that had her horns so narrow just a short distance from her head. Questioning revealed that she'd been very sick two years earlier.

My bull sparred with the tractor tire and got a crack that ran the length of his horn. It healed up, but made a black streak the length of his white horn. History revealed!

Your cows' horns tell you a lot about how well your program is working, but only after it's all over. Go look at the horns of a cow you've had for a while and see if you can spot the bad years. If they're all smooth and shiny, pat yourself on the back. You did a good job.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[dosthouhavemilk]

"Never" is a strong word and one I would disagree with in this case. I have seen mature Jerseys dehorned at two farms by two different people (one a vet and the other a vet's assistance who has outworked multiple vets in our area). The vet assistance did our cows. Three of them. Mistie, Sandy and Snowdrift. Snowdrift was the reason they came off. She pulled out of her stanchion turned to her right and tore into Simone's side. Simone (one of our highest producing cows) refused to come in the barn and was terrified to go in her stanchion. We took the horns off of Mistie and Sandy at that point since we were doing the one, may as well do all three. Sandy had used her horns to hurt me multiple times. For whatever reason she simply did not like me. Mistie was never a problem. Dad would lean in on her broad forehead between her beautiful horns and scratch her neck.
Joe used a ratcheting guillotine type dehorner and pulled the bleeders. They had gauze on their heads. Didn't take that long to recover. We did keep them in their stanchions in the barn for the first three days to keep them quiet and reduce any chance of them hurting their heads by being stupid. Mistie still allowed dad to lean on her and give her scratches after she healed. Sandy's attitude improved considerably and was a friendlier cow after that. Snowdrift was the same old biddy she had been but couldn't tear other cows up anymore. Last I knew, Mistie was still going at 11 years old. We lost Sandy at around 9 years old a couple of years ago. We lost Snowdrift a couple of years ago as well at 8. Same year we lost Sandy. They were dehorned at 3 and 4 years old. The other option was to ship them. Seems silly when all it took was a bad day.
Mistie before dehorning

Mistie a few years after the dehorning


On the other hand, the school had a different vet dehorn their cows. Same idiot that used the base of the X50 on three day old Jersey heifer calves.
They had four or five dehorned at one time. Too many torn up vulvas and too many issues in the herd. I have to admit I pushed for it. After ours did so smoothly I figured most were like that. I was wrong. I wasn't there for the dehorning, only the aftermath. A couple of those cows ended up with infections and they did not recover as quickly. So a lot depends on the person doing the job. I had sold one of the horned cows before that herd was dehorned. She came here to be bred to our bull before being picked up by her new owner from Kansas. The other girls had had their horns off for a couple of years at that point, so we had heifers and young cows without ripped up vulvas and knicks on their flanks from horns. Not after Sara came. She used her horns against the herd and tore up our younger animals. Out on pasture.
Every mixed herd of dairy cattle I have seen has the torn up vulvas and the gashed flanks from the horned cows using them to their advantage. These are herds on pasture.
Except one, the herd Sara went to. The cows get to keep their horns and the bulls/steers are disbudded. Though the owner isn't as keen on them at this point. Not after Sara took her horns and tore into a goat that trapped in the fence. That goat died. Sara has since passed away at a ripe old age. The owners system has worked fine around the horns.
A lot depends on your system. Not all cows with horns are aggressive and not all use them. You have a different situation with a solo cow. Makes it easier to work around the horns. Give her some time to adjust before making a decision.
As far as timing on dehorning. We were told not in the 3rd trimester of gestation due to the chance of aborting.

[arcticow]

Read my first post, I said "without cause." Using them to purposefully hurt for no good reason IS without cause. I lierally grew up under dairy cattle, with no small exposure to stockers. I don't speak from limited experience. As I said, "to each his own."

[arcticow]

Originally Posted by genebo

Have you ever looked closely at a cow's horns? They grow from the base, so the ends are the same ends they had when they were calves. You can see rings around their horns that tell the story of their years. A bad year makes a narrowing of the horn. Good years make smooth, slick horns.

A cow came here to be bred that had her horns so narrow just a short distance from her head. Questioning revealed that she'd been very sick two years earlier.

My bull sparred with the tractor tire and got a crack that ran the length of his horn. It healed up, but made a black streak the length of his white horn. History revealed!

Your cows' horns tell you a lot about how well your program is working, but only after it's all over. Go look at the horns of a cow you've had for a while and see if you can spot the bad years. If they're all smooth and shiny, pat yourself on the back. You did a good job.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

Horns on old cattle are like wrinkles on old stockmen. They can tell you all sorts of things 'bout a long, intresting life.

[dosthouhavemilk]

Originally Posted by arcticow

Read my first post, I said "without cause." Using them to purposefully hurt for no good reason IS without cause. I lierally grew up under dairy cattle, with no small exposure to stockers. I don't speak from limited experience. As I said, "to each his own."

I hope this wasn't a response to my post? I have no problem with people leaving horns on cows. I was disagreeing with the post where he had heard that dehorned cows "never" bounce back and never trust again. It really just depends on the situation. In our situation, it was for the betterment of the dairy herd. Not a large herd either. We milked 30 at peak and that was only until some of the first calf heifers were sold off. It was normally 10-20 cows year round.
I was merely imparting my personal experience with dehorning mature cattle.
We usually disbud calves. At the worst they are scooped (yuck!).
Then again, no horns on the goats either. Simply does not work with our style of management.

Dad tells of how and why they originally went to no horns. They were at the county fair and one of the low men on the pole got loose one night and went up and down the row of the cows and tore every single one of her herdmates up. Didn't touch anyone else's cows, just her herdmates. When the show cows came home, they had the vet out the next day and the entire herd was dehorned. So the herd used to be all horned.