CAn you feed calf store bought milk?

ufo_chris · #1 11/02/10, 01:28 PM

My new calf does not seem to be getting enough milk from his mom,day one he ate 3 pints colostrum from the bottle ,and I think a little from mom. Day 2 he only took 1 small bottle (1 pint) so I thought ok ,maybe he has learned to suck better. Next day I offered but he didn't take it but I figured he must be getting enough from her. Well yesterday and today he is drinking bottles again.
I only give him a pint at a time ,a couple of times a day, because I don't want him to give up on mama. He seems to be nursing of her a lot but I don't see any milk or foam. But he must be getting some ,or he would have taken all the bottles I offered,right?
Acts fine too.
Anyways I can get milk that is close to or on the expiration date where I work at sometimes. Can you feed store bought whole milk?
What if it turned sour already? I thought I read somewhere that sour milk or colostrum was ok.
I will only be supplementing with a pint or so at a time ,unless I know he is not getting any from her.
Thanks,
Chris

Calfkeeper · #2 11/02/10, 02:57 PM

We have never tried supplementing with storebought milk. It's probably been pasteurized and wouldn't hurt the calf, but wouldn't be best for it either, I'd guess.

But here's the thing; if the calf is with the cow he ought to be getting all he needs without any supplementation at all; unless there is a problem with the cow.

The danger with supplementing is that the calf will always lie to you about how much he needs. They seem to go into this "suckling frenzy" and will drink WAY more than they need. So much so that they will make themselves sick and scour themselves. Much like a kid let loose on too much Halloween candy.

Personally I wouldn't trust sour milk or colostrum. I just wouldn't want to risk the calves. After a certain amount of hours, 8-12 usually, the calf's stomach no longer absorbs the colostrum and it doesn't do it any good really. I have never tried it but my husband said when he'd try feeding colostrum to older calves it would scour them.

Good luck with him!

springvalley · #3 11/02/10, 08:06 PM

Unless your cow is a poor producer, she should be giving the calf what he needs. They only need about a gallon a day, and if she is producing more than that, the calf will regulate himself. I have rarely seen a calf scour on a cow nursing but it can happen. I would never feed a calf store bought milk unless I couldn`t get anything else, and never sour store bought milk. I have feed aged whole raw milk but that is a differant cat alltogether. just keep an eye on your calf, and if he acts hungry or doesn`t gain, you may then have to do something. > Thanks Marc

triple divide · #4 11/02/10, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ufo_chris

I thought I read somewhere that sour milk or colostrum was ok.

Keep in mind sour milk is NOT the same as sour milk colostrum;http://extension.missouri.edu/public...b.aspx?P=G3555 I've raised hundreds of calves on SMC. I'd never switch to store bought milk as a replacement for what the calf's dam can/should be able to provide.YMMV

ufo_chris · #5 11/02/10, 10:14 PM

Thanks for your replies.
Well the thing is ,I know that NORMALLY the mother produces more than enough milk, but this one has mastitis on one teat and one is very low so I only see him sucking on two ,which I know is normally still enough and it was last time.
This is more of a what if she is not making enough ,how do I tell?
I posted on another thread that he did not seem to be really sucking on her at all the first day, he was searching and licking but never really nursed ,that I seen and I was home all day watching them pretty close.
I did feed him some colostrum then.
Like I said before I do see him nurse now ,but not for too long ,he keeps going back and forth like he can't get enough.
Now I only give him a pint a couple of times a day because i know the danger of him overeating.
How can I tell if he is really hungry if I don't feed him?
I don't want him to starve.
He's only 6 days old.
I know I can't tell if he's loosing weight and wouldn't it be too late by then?
I was just asking about the milk in case it was ok. I have some MR I will use.
So any tips how I can tell how much he's getting?
Can't get near her udder to see if I can get some milk with the calf, she's too protective.
Thanks,Chris

G3farms · #6 11/02/10, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ufo_chris

........but this one has mastitis on one teat and one is very low so I only see him sucking on two ,which I know is normally still enough and it was last time.............

...............Can't get near her udder to see if I can get some milk with the calf, she's too protective................

sooo what are you doing for the mastitis?

Ronney · #7 11/03/10, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G3farms

sooo what are you doing for the mastitis?

This was my thought too.

Chris, not being able to get close to the udder because she is too protective is a weak excuse for doing nothing about it. I have a set of yards for the express purpose of being able to put cattle into so that I can inspect them, deal with mastitis, vaccinate, dehorn, ear tag, load them out and generally handle them. If you allow that mastitis to take care of itself from year to year you are likely to end up with no cow.

As to the calf and how much it's getting. If I was feeling as unconfident as you I would lock the calf up one night and hand milk the cow in the morning to see how much she was producing. Yes, you would probably have a battle royale but you would have an indication and something to work on. If she was producing between 5 and 10 litres from her working quarters, she would be producing enough to feed her calf. If that isn't an option you are going to have to use eye and commonsense. You will be able to tell if the calf isn't getting sufficient, they get slab sided, lose weight and go downhill very quickly.

No two calves feed in exactly the same manner. Some will feed several times in a 24 hour period, others will nip in and out all day but only taking a little at a time. Stop supplementary feeding it and see how it goes over the next 4-5 days.

It is actually ok to feed fresh store bought milk but not the best way as the milk has usually been homogonised. For some reason that doesn't sit well in a calf's stomach and they don't do so well on it.

Cheers,
Ronnie

ufo_chris · #8 11/03/10, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G3farms

sooo what are you doing for the mastitis?

Well I asked on another thread and a couple of local farmers and most they said not to worry about one quarter in a beef cow!

ufo_chris · #9 11/03/10, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronney

This was my thought too.

Chris, not being able to get close to the udder because she is too protective is a weak excuse for doing nothing about it. I have a set of yards for the express purpose of being able to put cattle into so that I can inspect them, deal with mastitis, vaccinate, dehorn, ear tag, load them out and generally handle them. If you allow that mastitis to take care of itself from year to year you are likely to end up with no cow.

As to the calf and how much it's getting. If I was feeling as unconfident as you I would lock the calf up one night and hand milk the cow in the morning to see how much she was producing. Yes, you would probably have a battle royale but you would have an indication and something to work on. If she was producing between 5 and 10 litres from her working quarters, she would be producing enough to feed her calf. If that isn't an option you are going to have to use eye and commonsense. You will be able to tell if the calf isn't getting sufficient, they get slab sided, lose weight and go downhill very quickly.

No two calves feed in exactly the same manner. Some will feed several times in a 24 hour period, others will nip in and out all day but only taking a little at a time. Stop supplementary feeding it and see how it goes over the next 4-5 days.

It is actually ok to feed fresh store bought milk but not the best way as the milk has usually been homogonised. For some reason that doesn't sit well in a calf's stomach and they don't do so well on it.

Cheers,
Ronnie

This is a Highland beef cow! Has never been milked!
What if the calf is hardly getting anything, won't it be dead in 4-5 days?
Chris
Also,what would it hurt to feed him a couple of times a day, a pint each ,just in case???
This is a real question ,I'm not being sarcastic or anything.
Won't he still regulate if he is getting enough?

wr · #10 11/03/10, 08:45 PM

You need to treat the mastitis and I can't imagine anyone telling you different. A beef cow may not produce the volume of milk a dairy cow would but she certainly needs to sustain a calf and the best way to sustain a calf is with 4 quarters.

Does the calf look tucked up, thin or appears to be weakening? If so you best do something soon. If you aren't sure, pinch a bit of skin on it's neck, pull it out and see if it springs back quickly or not. Spring back quickly indicates the calf isn't dehydrating.

ufo_chris · #11 11/04/10, 01:11 AM

So how do I treat it?
Straight in the teat is not an option.
Someone DH works with that used to have cows said to get some kind of antibiotic pills and crush in the feed???
Anybody know what he's talking about and if that would be ok to do.
Thanks ,Chris

ufo_chris · #12 11/04/10, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wr

You need to treat the mastitis and I can't imagine anyone telling you different. A beef cow may not produce the volume of milk a dairy cow would but she certainly needs to sustain a calf and the best way to sustain a calf is with 4 quarters.

Does the calf look tucked up, thin or appears to be weakening? If so you best do something soon. If you aren't sure, pinch a bit of skin on it's neck, pull it out and see if it springs back quickly or not. Spring back quickly indicates the calf isn't dehydrating.

REALLY! I'm not making this up....a few people told me don't worry about it in a beef cow!
One is an old Dairy farmer!

Ronney · #13 11/04/10, 05:54 AM

Chris, do you think we're all telling you a pack of porkys?

What does you cow being a Highlander got to do with anything. So she's a beefy but so are lots of cows and at some stage of it many of them need hands on handling for welfare or health issues - as yours does now! Do you not have the facilities or confidence to handle your cattle? Are you not aware that at best the mastitis will ruin the quarter and at worst could kill the cow? In my nearly 40 years of farming I've never let a mastitis cow looking after itself whether it be beef or dairy.

As to your calf, no it won't be dead in 4-5 days if it isn't getting sufficient milk but it will look tucked up, dehydrated, slab sided and thin and it will be obvious. If this happens then you know you are going to have to supplementary feed it. Calves will survive on minimal milk but they don't do well. I was once given a calf that would have been about a month old. It was nothing more than skin, bone and ticks and from the ---- on it's head it was obvious that it had survived from pinching milk through the back legs of any cow it could.

Cheers,
Ronnie

ufo_chris · #14 11/04/10, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronney

Chris, do you think we're all telling you a pack of porkys?

What does you cow being a Highlander got to do with anything. So she's a beefy but so are lots of cows and at some stage of it many of them need hands on handling for welfare or health issues - as yours does now! Do you not have the facilities or confidence to handle your cattle? Are you not aware that at best the mastitis will ruin the quarter and at worst could kill the cow? In my nearly 40 years of farming I've never let a mastitis cow looking after itself whether it be beef or dairy.

As to your calf, no it won't be dead in 4-5 days if it isn't getting sufficient milk but it will look tucked up, dehydrated, slab sided and thin and it will be obvious. If this happens then you know you are going to have to supplementary feed it. Calves will survive on minimal milk but they don't do well. I was once given a calf that would have been about a month old. It was nothing more than skin, bone and ticks and from the ---- on it's head it was obvious that it had survived from pinching milk through the back legs of any cow it could.

Cheers,
Ronnie

I do appreciate any advice but it's just almost funny how every time you ask a question you get a bunch of different answers.
I will call my vet today and ask him. I just hate bothering him if I can find the answer elsewhere.
And Ronny, please don't be so hard on me, so I'm a woman and weak and don't have all the confidence and experience you have. But we all gotta start somewhere.....
Chris

wr · #15 11/04/10, 02:14 PM

ufo_chris, I am also a small female and you just have to learn how to make things work for you.

ufo_chris · #16 11/04/10, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wr

ufo_chris, I am also a small female and you just have to learn how to make things work for you.

YEP, still learning......

ufo_chris · #17 11/04/10, 02:56 PM

Well I just talked to my vet and he says not to worry if she is not acting sick.
He says to treat her now would be more trouble than it's worth, and that it probably will resolve itself.
I will call him if she starts acting sick!
I trust this Vet very much, have had him for years and he has always been right on.
He is not lazy or too busy or too far away to mess with this,in case someone is thinking that.He would be here if he thought it was neccesery.
So for now I will watch her....and the calf, which seems fine so far.
Off to get him some calf primer pellets....
Chris

springvalley · #18 11/04/10, 04:49 PM

See once again, we all give advice, and they do what they want anyway. And don`t try and play the I`m a female and weaker card. I know alot of women that could kick my butt, and my wife never plays that card. My wife works side by side with me alot and I never think she is weaker because of her gender. When I had stock cows I could walk among them and check them every day. Also could work them if they needed health problems fixed. A stock cow will not clear up on her own if she is sick, they are tough but they also die. So if your cow does die in a couple weeks, don`t come back on here and say I guess I should have done this, and please feel sorry for me now. I have spent a lifetime farming, and love helping people, and we would never lead you astray. If I have no idea what the problem is I won`t suggest anything, thats why I don`t like giving advice on here as we can`t see the animal, take temps., and do an overall check up. As I have said before I wanted to be a Vet. and decided not to, but that still doesn`t say that I`m not qualified. I also know of several Vets. that shouldn`t be, and some vets. should only be puppy and kitty Vets. Sorry for the rant but if you want our advice, then are going to call the Vet. anyway, then don`t bother us with the questions. Like I said sorry for the rant, > Marc

triple divide · #19 11/04/10, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by springvalley

. If I have no idea what the problem is I won`t suggest anything, thats why I don`t like giving advice on here as we can`t see the animal, take temps., and do an overall check up.

Marc,

I know what you mean here with this post (in fact the entirety of it), but, I have read some galactically stupid advise offered on the on the internet on the subject of animal husbandry and some advise that is over-dramatized soap opera inspired crap.

It can be hard to sift the wheat from the chaff where it concerns advise.

One of my pet-peeves is mastitis. I consider it completely treatable and to a large degree preventable. I quit giving advise for the very reasons you outlined. Let them learn the hard way. It was never my business in the first place.

I believe a lot of folks get big animals not fully understanding that; big animals= potential big problems. There's no "lifeline" in farming. You rolls the dice, and you takes your chances.

PotBellyPigs · #20 11/04/10, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triple divide

Marc,

I know what you mean here with this post (in fact the entirety of it), but, I have read some galactically stupid advise offered on the on the internet on the subject of animal husbandry and some advise that is over-dramatized soap opera inspired crap.

It can be hard to sift the wheat from the chaff where it concerns advise.

One of my pet-peeves is mastitis. I consider it completely treatable and to a large degree preventable. I quit giving advise for the very reasons you outlined. Let them learn the hard way. It was never my business in the first place.

I believe a lot of folks get big animals not fully understanding that; big animals= potential big problems. There's no "lifeline" in farming. You rolls the dice, and you takes your chances.

Well, I don't own cattle, but I do own goats, and NONE of you answered Chris' question about crushing antibiotics into her cow's feed!

"Mastitis occurs when white blood cells (leucocytes), are released into the mammary gland, usually in response an invasion of bacteria of the teat canal. Milk-secreting tissue, and various ducts throughout the mammary gland are damaged due to toxins by the bacteria. Mastitis can also occur as a result of chemical, mechanical, or thermal injury. This disease can be identified by abnormalities in the udder such as swelling, heat, redness or pain. Other indications of mastitis may be abnormalities in milk such as a watery appearance, flakes, clots, or pus."

Bacterial cells of Staphylococcus aureus, one of the causal agents of mastitis in dairy cows. Its large capsule protects the organism from attack by the cow's immunological defenses.Bacteria that are known to cause mastitis include:

Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Staphylococcus aureus
Staphylococcus epidermidis
Streptococcus agalactiae[2]
Brucella melitensis
Corynebacterium bovis
Mycoplasma (various species)
Escherichia coli, (E. coli)
Klebsiella pneumoniae
Klebsiella oxytoca
Enterobacter aerogenes[3]
Pasteurella spp.[4]
Arcanobacterium pyogenes[5]
Proteus spp.[6]
Prototheca zopfii (achlorophyllic algae)
Prototheca wickerhamii (achlorophyllic algae)[6]

My guess, not being a vet is that by this description, antibiotics would be a good course of action.
Ps- I wouldn't mind running a few head of Highland cattle myself, sometime in the future.

Greg Zeigler,
Alger, Ohio