? about auctions

CrashTestRanch · #1 09/20/10, 09:25 PM

Does the buyer/bidder get a chance to check out the cattle BEFORE bidding?

If so, are they allowed to have a vet check them?

DaleK · #2 09/20/10, 10:02 PM

Depends on the auction I guess. Here the auctioneer has a vet check anything that's sold as a breeder to check for pregnancy,make sure she's a breeder, CMTs anything that's milking. Anything sold as a feeder, fat or veal calf the vet has to walk through and look for any obvious problems that make it unfit for sale like lameness,cancer eye, open wounds etc. but just really obvious stuff. Buyers can look them over from the catwalk but they don't really have room to have a lot of people down in the pens looking around. Not unusual in the breeder ring for somebody to stop the sale and go in the pen to look one over but in the other rings, never.

springvalley · #3 09/20/10, 10:11 PM

I always look over an animal before buying, but I don`t buy much at auction anymore. You can also bring home alot of sickness from a sale barn, so be careful. There are alot of not so honest people in this world so becareful buying at the sale barn. I like to buy private if I can, and sell that way also. >Thanks Marc

CrashTestRanch · #4 09/20/10, 10:35 PM

so, only from the TOP of the catwalk? what can you tell from there?

sde219 · #5 09/20/10, 11:23 PM

Depends on the auction - at sale barn auctions the catwalk is about it and honestly it's probably in the best interest of your animals not to get too close. As far as I can tell "breeding stock" at the sale barn generally means problems - local cattle farmers send in cows with a history of prolapse, cows with frequent bouts of lameness, and cows that haven't calfed or have had calving problems. Not to say there might not be a hard luck farmer dropping off quality but the odds aren't great.

I think the sticky on calf auctions is pretty right on. It's a huge risk and you don't know what level of care was delivered and why the animal is being brought to sale. From the catwalk you might get an idea of the activity level of the animal and also if it has scours - it isn't an exact science but it's better than a blind bid. I think with experience some of the frequent buyers can begin to tell the difference between stress from the environment and illness and might also know who brings what type of cattle in which lets them know the approx level of care and quality.

IMHO, sale barn = a trip to Vegas, if you are looking for something other than feeder cattle.

Purebred auctions are a different story - generally you can get a lot closer to the animals. I attended a Hereford auction in No. Ill on Saturday and we were able to enter every pen and get a sense of the animals disposition and look for signs of illness. At these type of auctions reputation matters and as such I think you'd always have a great sense of security in your purchase - however given that I saw a bull go for more than my F350 and at least a half dozen animals top 10k, I suppose you ought to have a great sense of security. I think you'd see similar access at other "limited audience" type auction.

sammyd · #6 09/21/10, 12:21 AM

at the local sales barn they only have a vet on dairy sales day. The animals are sleeved to check for free martin, they preg check and tell you how long they have been bred, they are looked over fairly well. All in milk are checked for bad quarters and they run a CMT and tell you if any quarter(s) tested high.
Any other day and you can pretty much count on looking at some nasty critters...

tinknal · #7 09/21/10, 05:19 AM

If you go the sale barn route, look for pens of cattle, not individuals. If you see a nice pen of uniform heifers you are looking at someone who has marketed their calves. Same thing if you see an entire herd dispersal, it's probably someone getting out of the business. Avoid sellers who send in only one or two head.

ErinP · #8 09/21/10, 09:16 AM

I'm not sure I'd agree with the one or two head thing, tink. Especially where he's in AZ.

It's not at all unusual for the hired-man to have a heifer or three as his bonus and sell them at the sale barn along with the boss's cattle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sde219

I think the sticky on calf auctions is pretty right on. It's a huge risk and you don't know what level of care was delivered and why the animal is being brought to sale.

And I completely disagree with this! Any decent sale barn will preg. the cows/heifers. If they're sold as "open" it's a mixed bag. They might breed back, they might not. And there's no way to know if they're in there because they're open or they didn't fit the owner's herd plans, or what.
People sell cattle for all sorts of reasons. Even good, running-aged cattle. And private sales are fairly unusual in this part of the world.

Karin L · #9 09/21/10, 10:03 AM

Here in Alberta, when you buy an animal, I think you have to get the records on it with it due to the mandatory traceability standards the government has for the auction marts. So this way you know EVERYTHING about it, and is just as good as actually going to see the animals first before they go through the auction ring. But I don't think they come in paper form, unless I'm mistaken.

FEF · #10 09/21/10, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashTestRanch

Does the buyer/bidder get a chance to check out the cattle BEFORE bidding?

If so, are they allowed to have a vet check them?

As has been said: it depends on the auction.

Registered sales usually allow you to walk among the cattle. They will also likely sell in compliance with the suggested terms and conditions of the breed association. And they'll have information on age, pedigree, breeding status, etc. Good producers will offer birth weights, weaning weights, etc., of the animals being sold.

Public auctions vary. Generally it's pay your money and take your chances. No guarantees, but the ones around here do preg cheeck and age cows. They then mark them on the hip/shoulder with their breeding status and age. Learn what those marks mean if you're going to be buying at your local sale barn.

Our local sale barns have "replacement" female sales a couple of times a year. You can talk to the ranchers who bring females to that sale and ask questions. You'd just have to decide for yourself if you are comfortable with the answers.

Our state cattlemen's association also runs a replacement female sale in the fall. Those guys usually provide quite a bit of information on the cattle, mostly bred heifers. They may have the name of the sire and dam's sire, plus the name or registration number of the bull that the heifers are bred to and an expected calving window for them. The cattle may cost a bit more, but they have pretty good sales so I guess some people are willing to pay more for information.

IMO, you should get out to some sales before you're actually in the buying mode and get comfortable with how they work. Or you might be able to find a local cattle buyer who could buy cattle for you. If he's a good one, he knows the tricks and reputations at sales he attends a lot better than you ever will.

For example, here's a link the the Angus Association's suggested sale terms and conditions. I wouldn't even consider buying a registered animal if the seller didn't sell under the suggsted terms and conditions of his breed association.

http://www.angus.org/pub/suggested_sale_terms.pdf

ksfarmer · #11 09/21/10, 11:33 AM

I do my own buying at the sale barn (I like to think I know cattle), but, a lot of guys don't have the time to sit at the auction so they contact a "order buyer". The tell him what they want and he does the buying for a small commission. You can learn a lot by watching these guys. They can spot problems in a bunch that most occasional buyers don't see. If you see one or two critters separated out to sell separate, ask the order buyer why. The noticed something: a bad eye, a limp, or maybe one just isn't the same weight as the others. Most order buyers live on their reputation, so they do the best they can for their customers.

ErinP · #12 09/21/10, 12:05 PM

Personally, I'd be very hesitant to use an order buyer, but that's just me. IMO, though, an order buyer is just a horse trader with a different job title.

Quote:

Our local sale barns have "replacement" female sales a couple of times a year. You can talk to the ranchers who bring females to that sale and ask questions. You'd just have to decide for yourself if you are comfortable with the answers.

For that matter, most stocker-feeder sales will also include replacement heifers. I know when we would sell weaned stockers in December, we would also sell a lot of perfectly good heifers. We just didn't have any purpose for that many in our herd, so we'd keep back 50 and sell the rest.

In fact, the last couple of years, we had guys sit with us asking questions while the calves were selling and they bought our heifers for their own herds.

CrashTestRanch · #13 09/21/10, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErinP

an order buyer is just a horse trader with a different job title.

??????

sde219 · #14 09/21/10, 12:08 PM

Quote:

And I completely disagree with this!

Notice I said calf auctions and reference to the calf sticky - obviously certain auctions are much more likely to have better vet testing ie replacement heifer sales. With the 1-4 day old calves, it's pretty difficult to know how long the calf was allowed to nurse before being removed and whether there is a health issue with the parents that you aren't aware of.

I suppose risk is all relative - I still shop sale barns but I recognize that my bargain might be a bust - so the "savings" must always be considered relative to risk. I don't tend to have the same level of concern with buying from reputable private sellers or from private sellers who seem interested in being around for a while.

Obviously people sell cattle for a variety of reasons but the weekly sale barn auction isn't the ticket for someone looking to buy or sell quality stock as they generally get bottom prices because of the unknowns involved.

ErinP · #15 09/21/10, 04:00 PM

Hmmm...
And I guess I read the OP as buying cattle from sale barns, not calves... I guess he could be referring to calves, but I read cattle as older animals. Entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding his intent.
Judging by the flow of the thread, though, I see I'm not the only one who's making this assumption.

So far as "bottom prices" at the sale barn...

I guess I've never been in Wisconsin, but in Nebraska, Wyoming, Colorado, the Dakotas, etc, you can expect the sale barn to be your primary source to market cattle! And if it's your primary source, you can count on NOT getting bottom prices.

Or are you referring to baby calves only?

ErinP · #16 09/21/10, 04:04 PM

Crash, a horse trader is someone who is a little on the shady side of a deal. Not that they're outright thieves, just that they'll take advantage of people who are green.

ksfarmer has obviously had a much more positive experience, but we've dealt with/known personally several order buyers in several different states and in my opinion, yeah, they're basically horse traders.

FEF · #17 09/21/10, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashTestRanch

??????

I'd expect there are shady cattle buyers (order buyers) out there. If you're thinking about using one, do some research on his operation. Talk to him about what you're looking for. The guy here who buys locally has been running his operation for probably 20 years and his daddy ran it before him for longer than that. You don't stay in business that long without making your customers happy.

He knows that if he doesn't make his customers happy, they won't come back for him to buy more cattle. He has probably half dozen buyers who hit the sale barns around the region every week. They have "orders" for certain kinds of cattle.

He's been very willing to come talk to our local cattlemen's group about what his customers are looking for when they send him out to buy cattle. He's funny and informative; has lots of stories to tell. Like the one about getting out of college and buying a big Cadillac convertible because he just knew he'd be rich soon. Twenty years later, he says, he's still driving it......and about to get it paid off.

ksfarmer · #18 09/21/10, 05:49 PM

I think there is a big difference between "traders" and "buyers". A true order buyer will try his best to have a satisfied customer, if not, he is out of business soon.
As far as sale barn auctions go, there must be a big difference in various parts of the country. Around here, there are very few private sales. Nearly every cattleman buys and sells at the sale barn. Any private sales will be based on the going price at auction. Breeding bulls will probably be the exception, being sold at production sales, or private individual sales.

CrashTestRanch · #19 09/21/10, 05:57 PM

I don't see a lot of private sales around here, nothing really listed on CL or the paper ... maybe I ain't lookin in the right place ...

but right now we're still trying to scrounge funds for fencing ...

I just want a head start when it comes time to put cattle on the pasture ...

ErinP · #20 09/21/10, 06:06 PM

Crash, I'm going to take a guess that Arizona works much like most of the rest of the western states; your best bet will be at the sale barn.
You might look in the classifieds of the local ag papers and find a handful here and there. But more likely, the sale barn is where you're going to find most sellers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksfarmer

I think there is a big difference between "traders" and "buyers". A true order buyer will try his best to have a satisfied customer, if not, he is out of business soon.

I'm not sure what the difference is between a true order buyer and a pretend order buyer, but I do know of the ones I've known, I sure wouldn't count on them to find the cattle I'm looking for!! lol