Help picking out first milk cow

[Apryl in ND]

I'm going to a small dairy to look at some cows and would like some opinions and advice! This will be my first milk cow and I will be milking by hand. I want something that is gentle and can be halter broke.

He has an assortment of ages. Some cows that are 3 titters (he SAYS they were raised by another farmer in the same pen and sucked on each other and got mastitis). He also has some yearlings that he would sell for $600 that he'd AI for me to a bull of my choice. And he is expecting five more calves to be born shortly and said he'd sell me one of them for $200. These are mostly 3/4 jersey 1/4 holsteins.

I'm thinking that a bottle calf could be raised to be very tame and docile, but I've never done it before and wouldn't want to kill my new heifer.

My concerns with a yearling or cow are that they might not be that tame or easily halter broken?? So what do you all recommend for a beginner? What should I ask him about the cows also? Thanks!

[Callieslamb]

Go and look at them. You will be able to tell how tame they are already. I don't belive a cow sucking itselfs will cause mastitis ( not sure but) so that gives me pause on the rest of his information.

Here is my experience. We moved to a cold climate. We have some land and wanted to put it to good use. I wanted a milk cow but I was afraid the climate would make me change my mind. We decided to buy a calf - we could raise her and it would give me time to see if I could handle the outside chores in the climate. We have fed her for just over a year now and she was AI-ed last Sat. (hope she took!!!). I love her dearly. She is a fine, fine heifer. I don't care if they are halter broken since almost every cow I know is attracted to a bucket of grain. She is going to be a great milk cow.....but....I will have to feed her ANOTHER year - almost...before she gives me any milk. Do a little math exercise and see how much that little baby will cost you in the long run.

Calves are a great way to get some experience. I am not knocking it - it is exactly what I did. If you just use sense, you will do just fine with one. Buy the best milk replacer you can find - highest fat content. Be watchful and don't over feed her. But.....add up the possible totals and maybe the cow already in milk, already trained and you will already know if she will kick or not...isn't such a bad deal. You can milk a grown cow and see how easily that milk comes out those handles too. Some cows just have larger holes or something. You will know what her teats are shaped like, etc. There is a lot to say for going either way.

When you go and look - take someone who knows cows with you!!!!

[kotapony]

If I was looking for a family cow, I'd personally go with something already milking. And I wouldn't be even a little afraid of a 3 titter. For reference, I was a city girl till I met my husband 3 years ago. I quit a teaching job, and now run a 50 cow dairy with him full time. So while I don't know a lot, I've had a trial by fire and have a somewhat unique prospective going from someone who'd never touched a cow to milking full time.

I've heard the myth about calves sucking each other that causes them to come fresh only milking 3 quarters. I hesitate to call it a myth, as I don't honestly know if it's true or not, but I do know a lot of older dairymen believe it. We raise our calves in communal groups, and while we do occasionally have one come fresh as a 3 titter, I'm not particularly inclined to believe that is what caused it. So I wouldn't let that put me off, and I would just look at what this farmer says in the light of it being generational knowledge instead of modern science. As an example in the same vein, my father in law (who started the dairy), is convinced we are out of our minds as we stopped feeding hay to our babies until 3 months old. This is what our nutritionist and several vets have told us is the best way to go (something to do with how the rumen develops), but my FIL is an old-school, "this is how I've always done it and it worked for me" kind of guy. And when he started the dairy, it was the common practice to have really good quality hay available from birth. So my main point is that whatever the cause, I wouldn't dismiss a 3 titter just because she's a 3. As I said, we've had 3 titters come fresh that way, lose a quarter to mastitis, or occasionally cut a tit so badly we lost the quarter. Most of the time they remain productive and still produce enough milk for us to keep them in the herd. One of our highest producing cows actually came fresh on 3 quarters as a heifer, and hasn't had a lick of mastitis trouble in her remaining three quarters in... I think she's on her 4th lactation now.

As to the tameness of a given cow, I agree with callieslamb: just go meet them. We milk in a parlor, so none of our cows are halter broke or receive any particular handling other than us driving them around the free stall barn. That said, there are a couple with just a really nice personality that would make great family cows and would be easy to halter break. I'd look for one I could walk up to in the barn that liked head scratches. If she acts spooky at your presence, she's probably not ideal as a first cow. But if you can find a cow you're comfortable with while she's just loose in the field or barn, one that is already happy to have you stand there and scratch her, you shouldn't have much trouble halter breaking her.

One other note, a friendly cow is not always a cow that likes to be milked. We have one heifer now like that. She's dead quiet, lets you mess with her, and you can even feel around her sack when she's loose in the barn. Buy boy, don't even try to get the milkers on without a kicker. She's whomped me a couple good ones. She's the only one I've ever known like that (to be so friendly and easy in the barn, but so unhappy about milking time), but having seen it once it is something to keep an eye for.

And that is why the best thing about an older cow is you can actually try milking her before you buy. If someone came to me wanting a family cow, I'd be willing to let them try milking her to the best we're able (meaning, it would have to be during our scheduled milking, while she was in the parlor), but that would be enough to let you see for yourself how you got along with her.

My husband told me there are both "easy" and "heavy" milkers. As the names imply, "easy" means it's not hard to squirt out the milk, and "heavy" means a lot of milk comes out per squirt. A cow can be one or the other or both. Both is ideal for a hand milker, as it makes her easy and fast to milk out. I've found that with cows in our herd we periodically have to squirt some milk out. We have one with nice big tits the milk practically falls out of (I like her!), others with nice big tits I have a devil of a time getting anything out of, and of course everything in between. A lot of our heifers come fresh that are no problem with the milkers, but Lord help you if you tried to milk them by hand. Many of our heifers have tiny little tits you can barely get two fingers around. By their second lactation, their sacks grow and it's usually not so bad. That's the biggest problem I think in going with a calf. It's not only 2 years before you actually get milk, but you don't know the biggest questions about her - how easy will she be to milk, what will her sack be like, does she kick, and how much does she produce? An older cow you would know that up front.

You didn't say what he's asking for an older 3 titter, but I wouldn't expect it to be too much more than heifers. Around here, it would be less. We've had to sell off chunks of our herd lately, and the dealers won't even consider looking at a 3 titter; most commercial dairies just won't buy them. That tanks her value even if she's an otherwise nice cow. Also, you're probably wanting something that would be considered a cull as far as any other dairy is concerned. You don't say what you plan is for the milk, but we generally shoot for a 50 pound average (which isn't actually that high for a commercial dairy). Could you really use almost 6 gallons of milk a day? And would you really want to have to milk out that much by hand? If you'd be willing to look at, say, a 3 titter that only milks around 30 pounds she ought to be cheaper than the $600 heifer. A cow like that has value as a family cow, but from a commercial view isn't worth more than meat price.

My favorite cow in our herd is an adorable little girl, something around 3/4 jersey x 1/4 holstein. She's tiny, fat, a 3 titter (cut a tit quite badly and lost the quarter), and only milks about 30 pounds on a good day. She lets me scratch on her in the barn, is very quiet, nosy, annoying, adorable, and completely worthless from a commercial view. Yet she's the one I'd keep as a personal cow if we ever lost the dairy.

There's a lot to be said for raising a calf, and caring for my babies is probably my favorite job on the farm. But to me there are so many variables that add up to make a good family cow, I'd rather buy something I know what it is up front, rather than take the gamble on what I'd end up with raising a baby. It would be really unfortunate to spend all the time raising a heifer, put not only time but a lot of heart into her, only to have her turn out to be a kicker, or hard to milk, or some other such thing that doesn't make her ideal as a family cow. There's not a thing wrong with that route if you want to take the gamble, and deal with what you get. You may end up with a cow you just love and have the satisfaction of having raised her from a calf.

Oh, and one other thought, if you go with a heifer, make sure to breed her to a small breed bull (like a jersey). Once upon a time my father in law bought some pure holstein heifers bred to a holstein bull, and he had to pull every single calf. By that I mean the calf was too big for the cow to have on her own, and you literally tie a rope around the calf's front legs and ratchet it out. After that he switched and bred all his heifers to a jersey bull for smaller calves. We still do that, and seldom have a calving problem. After their first calf, we cross everything back to holstein, and this seems to work even for our 3/4 jerseys. The only calves we've pulled since I met my husband have been due to other problems (usually twins or the calf being breach or otherwise out of position).

So there's benefits either way, but definitely if it were me, I'd pick out a nice friendly 3 titter and go with it. You'll still have the fun of raising a calf when the time rolls around for her to have her next one.

Hopefully that gives you some things to think about.

[Apryl in ND]

Thanks for the replies! I have a lot to think about. I'm not sure how many 3 titters he has or exactly how much he wants for them but a few months back he had some 3 titters that he was asking $600-$700 for. I'm not sure on their ages either. As for how much milk I need....I honestly don't need too much for the house maybe a half gallon to a gallon a day is all. But I'd like to raise a couple of pigs each year and I have 40 chickens that I could give excess milk to. I would also maybe like to raise an extra calf on her if possible. I don't plan on milking year round as it get REALLY freakin' cold here in the winter months (and I have a circulation disorder in my hands so I absolutely can't be outside in the winter without gloves on). Maybe Late March through October. So I need to find something that will calf then. How soon after being AI'd can they be preg checked? I believe that he has a yearling heifer that is half beef. Maybe he would sell her for cheaper. Would a half beef be suitable for my needs? Thanks!

[linn]

I would not buy a three quartered cow for my first cow. If other calves were nursing on these heifers, they may have mastitis waiting to happen.

[kotapony]

As long as the quarter is already dry, I don't personally see where a three quartered cow would be any different than a four quartered cow.

I asked my husband on the half beef heifer, and it was his opinion to be very cautious on her. He's done crossing of beef to dairy, and thinks it entirely depends on the resulting cow. You can have one be tame as a pet and another be totally psychotic. So his opinion there was to avoid that one unless you have someone really knowledgeable on cattle to evaluate her for you. As he put it, "they can fool you". Generally speaking for reference, when you cross beef and dairy production goes down and butter fat goes up.

I have no experience with pigs to know how much milk it takes to raise them, nor any of raising a calf or two on the cow and still trying to hand milk her, so someone else will have to give you some help there. I can say we raise all our calves on milk (not replacer), and feed each one a gallon a day (1/2 gallon per feeding) for at least 3 months before weaning. Any more than that and they tend to get scours. But if you leave them on the cow (which we do occasionally for various reasons), they can drink a lot more than that and do fine. So depending on the work load you want, you can keep the calves separate from the cow and bottle feed them to be able to keep more of the milk out for other uses, or leave them on her. I will admit calves left on the cow do tend to thrive more than those bottle fed. That said, bottle fed calves still grow out just fine.

Our vet uses an ultrasound to preg check, and says she can confirm as early as 28 days. Without an ultrasound, I think it's around 60 days, but I can't swear to that. There's also blood tests that can be done at 3 weeks, although I have no idea the cost of that.

5 months is a long time for a milk cow to be dry. This is getting into the realm of where I know just enough to be dangerous, so take it with a grain of salt. And remember it's from the view point of a dairy, not a family cow. We run a bull with the dairy herd, so they breed back when they're ready. Once a cow freshens, look for her to milk about 300 days before she dries off. She should ideally have a 6 week to 2 month break, and then come fresh again. Our high producers generally have a longer cycle. That is, once they freshen the don't even come in heat again for several months. They may milk a couple months longer before they dry off. Even our average cows vary between themselves and by calf. Sometimes they just breed back quicker than others. Even with AI if your cow isn't ready to conceive she's not going to. I don't know that it's impossible to keep her where she'd freshen about the same time every year, but I think it would take a good bit of luck. Again, those with AI experience and a single family cow can probably give you more accurate info than I can. I'm just trying to throw out my experience and give you some things to think about.

My main point is just think about how much milk you want to have, and where it will go if you're not milking her by hand. If you have one calf on her, plus hand milk enough for your family, a few pigs, and chickens, you'll have to do something besides just leave her with the one calf when you're ready to stop milking. It would be nice, but cows just don't seem to appreciate what cold is so she'll go right on making milk whether it's cold or not. I'd say the easiest solution would be to buy a second bull calf to put on her when you're ready to stop milking. Possibly two. How many calves she can raise depends on how much milk she has, and also what you're feeding her. Again, the details there on the ratio of milk to calf when on the cow get outside my realm of knowledge. You're still playing a game of trying to time weaning the calves with the time she's ready to dry off, but at least you always have the option of sending them to sale early or finishing them out on milk replacer if need be.

[willow_girl]

Kotapony,

Excellent advice! Thank you. Welcome to the forum.

[Apryl in ND]

I really like the idea of putting some calves on her the parts of the year that I can't milk. Then it wouldn't matter as much when she calves because she'd be in milk for 10 months. I also have two miniature dairy goats that I can breed to have in milk when she's dry (and they're small so I can bring them into a heated shed in winter to milk) By the way, I love my goats but I HATE that their milk is naturally homogenized. That means no cream, no butter, no ice cream, ect. Thanks for all the ideas. You've definitely given me some good things to consider!

[Apryl in ND]

Well I went and looked at the cows today and decided (probably) on a yearling heifer named Emma. She's 3/4 Jersey, 1/4 Holstein. She's very dark brown, almost black with the light jersey ring around the eyes and nose. She is extremely tame and was licking me all over. Did not seem spooky at all. At what age/weight do you all breed your Jerseys for the first time?

[kotapony]

Congratulations on your new girl. She sounds adorable.

Our bare minimum to breed is 16 months. We have a mix of pure holstein up to 3/4 jersey, and my husband goes a lot by size. When it's time to put some heifers in with the bull, I give my husband the list of those technically old enough (I'm the record keeper), and he'll pick out the couple he thinks are actually ready given how mature they seem. Often it seems the jerseys end up getting a few extra months, but I'm not sure if that's because they just seem extra small compared to the holsteins, or because they really need a little extra time. As I said before, I still have a long way to go figuring all this out.

[Callieslamb]

Originally Posted by Apryl in ND

Well I went and looked at the cows today and decided (probably) on a yearling heifer named Emma. She's 3/4 Jersey, 1/4 Holstein. She's very dark brown, almost black with the light jersey ring around the eyes and nose. She is extremely tame and was licking me all over. Did not seem spooky at all. At what age/weight do you all breed your Jerseys for the first time?

Wait until she has had several heats. I just bred my jersey/holstein heifer at 15 months - but it depends on the heifer.

[tinknal]

A little late, but here is my .02c .

I would look for a first or second calf freshened cow that is already bred back. That way you would get milk right away, and you would not have to worry about breeding until after she calves.

[Apryl in ND]

Actually he is going to AI the heifer for me and if she doesn't take, he has a clean up bull (angus). He's not charging for the AI, I just have to pay for the semen. Now he's saying that he's not sure what heifers like his are going for (he's new at dairy farming) and he's going to check with some other people first before he tells me a final price. I'm kind of upset because before he had told me $600 for the heifers. He also wants to go look at the one I want and make sure he wants to sell that one when before he made it sound like $600 would buy any of the heifers.

How much is a bred jersey cross yearling worth in your area?

I don't want to buy one of the cows from him. He only had three 3 titter cows. They are all on their first freshening and are NOT tame. Wouldn't even let me get within 12 ft. I don't think I want to have to tame something down and learn to milk at the same time. The yearling heifers on the other hand were very tame and trying to eat my clothes and followed me like puppies.

[Callieslamb]

Originally Posted by Apryl in ND

How much is a bred jersey cross yearling worth in your area?

Full jersey heifer last week here sold for $1000 - bred to calve first calf in Oct. I hope my cross is worth almost the same - about $800.

[springvalley]

I have been busy, and only reading last couple days. Apryl , bred jersey heifers are kinda pricey. We charge 500 for weaned calves,800 for yearlings and 1200 for bred heifers. I also will not give away three teater cows, because I keep them around for a reason (they are good cows). I don`t keep cows around just because, if they kick are problem cows or just plain mean, they don`t stay around. I don`t get many like that anyway but once and awhile it does happen. If your good to your cows they will be good to you, if you beat your cows they will not want anything to do with you. I don`t sell junk cows to people for family cows, I only sell them cows I want them to enjoy. Just this morning I let a lady hand milk a cow to see how hard it really is. As far as feed, I feed a small amount of grain in the barn and pasture in the summer and dry hay in the winter. Thats it no more, no less, and have very little health problems. I do not beleive in feeding distillers grain and other feed knock offs to make my feed bill cheeper. I also raise all my own feed, do not buy anything other than organic mineral and salt. We use AI some, but also keep a bull. All of our cows are broke to lead as it makes treating and handeling much easier. If I sell cows as nurse cows, that means they are only for calf raising, nothing more, and they are priced at market price. One of the cows we sold last fall for a nurse cow was bred, she had a nice heifer calf this spring and she basicaly has paid for herself allready by doing so. Good luck on your cow or heifer search.

Also Kotapony, welcome to the forum, from one dairy to another, also I must say your father-in-law sounds like a very smart man. I also feed grass hay to my calves, as nature intended. I have very little trouble with calves, we also feed oats for grain as it is truly the best for babies (anykind). For many years we have messed with cattles feed and tried to improve on nature, and you just can`t do it. I also feed very little alfalfa(mostly cows) as most animals don`t need that high protien diet. So good luck to you all in your search. >Thanks Marc

[deineria]

The guys sounds a bit crooked, to me.

[Apryl in ND]

Originally Posted by deineria

The guys sounds a bit crooked, to me.

That's not what the deal is. He means well. He's a beginning dairy farmer and just trying not to lose money. I can understand that completely. I actually feel very lucky that I finally found somebody within 100 miles willing to sell me anything at all. I'm the one that contacted him about wanting to buy, he wasn't advertising.