She's not pregnant, is she?

[Oatbran]

We bought a family milk cow and brought her home 3 weeks ago. She came with a 6 month old bull calf (any suggestions on the best way to castrate him are welcome). But it was also our understanding that she would be bred back as she spent approximately 2 months with the bull before we picked her up.

Within the last couple of days, I've noticed her calf smelling around her back-end and trying to mount her. She doesn't tolerate it and butts him or moves away when he tries. But I'm guessing this means she isn't pregnant. Am I right, or could this just be the calf is starting to mature?

We really enjoy her and love that she is on our little (rented) homestead, but I'm afraid she's going to turn into a very expensive "learning experience."
1) She's 10 years old but has only had 5 calves.
2) We bought her for milk, but her udder doesn't seem that big. She was trained to milk when we bought her, and we did milk her and try her milk, but in the last few weeks that we've had her, she seems to have forgotten how. I can get her interested in food at the stanchion (without locking her head in), but she'll jerk her head out of the stanchion if I try to close the gate and she won't let me touch her udder. We expected to be able to milk her right away, but now I feel we're re-training her for something we paid a premium to buy upfront.
3) I'm thinking she may have been starved where she was before. They didn't have much grass to speak of, and they were feeding her a flake of hay in the morning and one in the evening with a half a pitcher full of sweet feed at milking time. But on our place, she will eat as long as she has food in front of her. So maybe that's why she stayed so calm in the stanchion - she couldn't wait to get the food.
4) They told us they respect fences well, but they seem to like to scratch their sides on the fence which is causing the fence to bow outward, and I'm afraid they will eventually break out. We have 2X4", 5ft high field fence on 4" treated round posts spaced at approx 8-10 ft. We're responsible for any fence damage.

Anyway, any comments are appreciated, but my main question was whether she's pregnant or if we need to find (and pay for) a bull or AI or if we should just wait and see.

Thanks.

[cjb]

I am no expert and there are many on here but I'll opine. Question: was there any kind of "trial period" for this cow? You said you paid a premium, may I ask you how much? A ten year old milk cow is pretty old, really, so you shouldn't have had to pay much, even if she is stanchion trained.

Is the bull calf nursing on her or is he weaned?

When I got our milk cow (my first and I was and am a complete newbie) she had been machine milked in a stanchion that kind of locked her in and wasn't halter broke or tame, at least not to me. She also came with a bull calf but he was about a month old.

I started brushing her while she ate her grain and that tamed her very quickly. As soon as I took the calf off of her, she treated me like I was her calf. I can now toss hay on the floor, flip a bucket over and milk her without any restraints.

They were clearly not feeding her enough, given your description. Find out from the experts here what to feed her and gradually move her into an adequate diet. I'm thinking that her milk bag is small because she's not getting enough nutrition.

If that calf isn't nursing and you're not milking then the milk bag is small because it's about to go away.

[cjb]

Re. the fence - I would run a hot wire on insulators that stick out from the fence around at about shoulder height. "respecting fences" usually means that they won't get out of an electric fence - not that they won't rub on a non electric fence. Cows are guaranteed to rub on anything that doesn't bite them back.

[cjb]

Sorry, also... that calf is probably just being a typical boy. He's going through puberty and is ready to hump anything that walks (or doesn't). I wouldn't necessarily think that it means that she's not pregnant. Have a vet pre-check her to be sure.

[Oatbran]

We paid $1000 for her, her calf and for her to be bred. As for a trial period, they said we could use their bull if we found she wasn't pregnant. She is a registered Dexter.

The bull calf is still nursing. I've thought of separating them over night and seeing if she's more willing to be milked in the morning. Any experience there?

On the fence, I have thought about installing electric, but I'm worried about my small children accidentally touching it.

[freedomfrom4]

A small child will not die from touching the fence. Just ask mine. They know the fence bites, and only needs the lesson once. I have shocked myself accidently more then the kids have Besides kids shouldn't be in the field with the cows without supervision and the wire should be run on the inside.

[Oatbran]

Originally Posted by freedomfrom4

A small child will not die from touching the fence. Just ask mine. They know the fence bites, and only needs the lesson once. I have shocked myself accidently more then the kids have Besides kids shouldn't be in the field with the cows without supervision and the wire should be run on the inside.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to use electric fence to move her around the property or confine her to sections of pasture as in a rotational system on a small scale. But I have an 18 month old who loves to feed the cows, and I read an account (I think it was on a fence manufacturers website) of a toddler that was killed when struck near their head by an electric fence. I am still debating whether I should use electric or try to get a similar effect by just tethering them.

[Callieslamb]

The vet just fixed our 7. Month old bull calf. He used a very large band. After a day of walking very gingerly, he is now a more calm guy. Did you assume she was bred or did they say she was? I see no reason for a 6 month calf to be on a cow.

As for antics while trying to milk. She is currently the boss don't let her. Get away with any more crap. Keep her inside without feed for a day and see if she behaves better. As for the pregnacy question, my bull was a great indicator of heat at 5 months. He wasn't tall enough to do anything about it. The only way to know is to run a pregnacy test. If she is open now you need to know to be prepared.

I did not like the idea of elec fence either. At the top inside of the. Fence your toddler can't reach it. That will save your fence. Install a post away from the fence for scratching. I have a lot if elec fence now. I used the rope rather than wire as the top wire anywhere people will be close. It has a much heavier presence and is a great warning. It has even reminded me a few times. If your fence is tight enough, child nor animal will get wrapped in it. You canalso easily install switches or handles to either shut off the current in places or open the fence to go through. I use them all the time. Kids can use them easily. They might forget yo switch it back on, but then mycows unplug ours almost daily. They don't even try to get out though.

[Alwaystrying]

I hope I don't offend you but in order to milk the cow you need to properly secure her. I know of many people that pull up a stool in the pasture to milk alongside the cow but it sounds like your cow is not going to be willing to do that. Also with the age of the calf I'm guessing he keeps her pretty cleaned out and in order to get milk you need to separate them (at least for 12 hours) and your cow still may not let down for you or might with a very small quantity.

I have also seen bull calves of that age acting interested in both open and confirmed pregnant cows so it's not a guarantee either way. It takes less then $10 to biotrack her.

I don't believe your cow has forgotten how to be milked, either she didn't know how before you bought her or she has you buffaloed so build a proper restraint that she can't get out of.

[deineria]

Lots of things going on here, probably:
#1. If she was being fed that little, it wasn't nearly enough, and she was probably weaker and more willing do accept anything. I have encoutered many horses with rescues I've done that were sweet as sugar, let anyone ride them, do their feet, teeth, etc because they were weak and starving. As soon as they began getting enough feed, some turned out totally dangerous. So her attitude might very well be different now that she is eating more -I've seen that a lot.
#2. Cattle usually rubs fences, so she can respect the fence because she isn't going through it - but they will usually rub it unless there is electric on it. . .I have little ones, but I don't worry about the electric because it is inside the fence on 6'' insulators. I don't let them inside the fence, so I don't worry.
#3. The calf mounting her probably doesn't mean anything more than just that. . . he is trying it out. My Jersey heifer mounts EVERYTHING - us, the goats, the llama. . .
#4. Don't get discouraged. It takes time to figure out what you need to do, time to teach or retrain her to what YOU want her to do, etc. Don't feel too bad about the price, I mean, I paid $1,000 for our Jersey heifer; I'd do it again. She is what I wanted. If the cow is what you wanted - give or take some training - be happy with her.
#5. The calf is probaby still nursing, right? If so, he is drinking a lot - surely, and that might be why the udder looks smaller.

If you wondering about whether she is bred, just draw some blood and send it for testing. It is super cheap.

[springvalley]

Well I don`t know everything, but I have farmed my whole life, and have milked many of those. Your cow more than likely is bred, but the vet can confirm that. All our cows come in the barn to be milked, and either are feed hay or grain, and I don`t milk till they are done eating. seems some jersey`s can`t eat and get milked at the same time. Cows that have been milked on a regular basis should not have to be retrained to be milked. Now granted some cows are better cows than others as far as attitudes and being ornery. Some put up with being milked and some don`t so much, some come just for the feed. My cows do real well, my wife gets a kick out of it when I go out the back door in the morning and at night and give the cows a holler, and they come headin for the barn. Each cow has it`s own personality and respond differently to being milked. As far as price, I have a ten year old cow that I am milking and it would take a 1000 to buy her. Some cows are priceless and some cows I wouldn`t take if you gave them to me. Life is to short to put up with a knuckle head. You can`t let her buffalo you, you each have to earn a respect for each other. My cows act alot different now than when I first got them. I would get that calf weaned and in a pen near where you milk so that the cow can see him while you milk her. She may be a pain in the rear, but stick with it, they come around. I had a heifer two years ago that was six weeks before I could walk away from her while milking her with the milker. I am not a big fan of hand milking, even if I only had one or two cows I would milk with a machine. Some cows are hard milkers by hand and some are easy, most cows milk good by machine. It is always harder to milk when a cow still has the calf on her, but you can always go away for the weekend if you want when the calf is on her. All I can say is good luck with her and don`t give up, you can not kill them with kindness. Mess with your cow alot, I mean lot. Keep us updated. >Thanks Marc

[prairiegirl]

I am still learning about cows and milking and all that goes along with them. So, please remember I'm not an expert. But, it struck me that she's 10 years old and has only had 5calves. I would want to know why. Could be a very good reason, but most cows are bred more often.

I would also separate her from the calf. I know that's not always easy to find another fenced area, especially when starting out.

Don't give up. There's been plenty of good advice offered and it does get easier.

[Oatbran]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I actually had a small breakthrough yesterday evening and I was finally able to milk her. It was strange, almost like a light bulb went off in her head like, "Oh this is what they want me to do." And from then on she stayed relatively still and let me milk her for a few squirts from each quarter.

I haven't yet tried to lock her head in the stanchion after the first time when I learned rather dramatically that I was going to need to attach it to the walls a little more securely. But it might not be an issue if I can milk her without her head locked in at all.

I have this debate going on in my own head about whether to force her to my will or entice/reward her into doing what I want. Previous to last night, I had thought about tying her head in the stanchion with the gate locked and leaving her there until she calmed down and let me milk her, even intentionally starving a bit her if needed, until she got the picture. But I couldn't convince myself that she wouldn't see me as the enemy from then on even if she did what I wanted her to do. Luckily for me, repetition of feedings with good hay and some gentle talking and brushing seems to have worked for now. When she has kicked at me, we've had some stern words but never anything out of control. Who knows if this would work with a cow that hadn't been trained before?

Continued comments/suggestions are welcome. Thanks, everyone.

[gone-a-milkin]

It is not cruel or torturous to the cow to be headlocked in a stanchion.
She will not "hate" you for doing it.
Cattle are livestock. They depend on you to be the Boss.
Somebody has to be in control.
You may get her to stand for milking w/o out the headgate.
Or, she may really hurt you.

What if she gets hurt and you need to restrain her?
Would you rather wait until she is bleeding to teach her to stand still?

This 'coax and reward' method is not going to get you respect.
It is going to teach her that she doesn't have to do what you say,
unless she deems your 'reward' as a good enough reason to do it. There will
be times when she is already nervous (of something else) and it is your job to
get her to a safe place. Rewarding her with treats wont be an option then.

It sounds to me like you are still a bit scared of her. I understand that.
She is bigger than you are.

Unless you severely beat her and scare her really bad, she will NOT despise you.
Even then she will likely just be afraid of you, not vengeful.
When you wean the calf she will bawl her head off for 3 days. She will not hate you for
taking her baby. Cows dont hold grudges like people do.

Get the stanchion fixed up good. You are going to need that thing.
After you are both comfortable together, THEN try milking her w/o it.

Stanchions are for your safety, and for the cows own good.
Nothing mean about it.
Good luck with her. She will come around quickly, if you are persistent.