Natural wormers & delousers?

[U-Turn]

We have a sick, scruffy-looking cow. We've had her since last July and she is pregnant, due in June (maybe late May). We did not know she was pregnant because the only bull she's been with has been tested and did very, very poorly, so we figured she didn't get bred. Surprise! We've not been milking her, as she adopted a calf in late September and has been out nursing him. That's the background.

We noticed diarrhea at the watering trough, and when we went out to the field we knew at a glance she was sick. Terribly dirty backend, scruffy hair, patches of bad skin (some rubbed raw). We just got back from the vet and she said that it *could* be a combo of worms, lice, green grass, and pregnancy that has her looking so bad/having diarrhea.

Or, it could be Johne's showing up. Frankly, she's always been a little scruffy-looking. Vet says we should first deworm/delouse and see if that clears her up. If not, then it may be more serious and we can deal with that then.

So, at this point, we have her isolated. The calf is now off of her. We would like to attempt to deworm/delouse naturally first and then proceed to the big guns if it doesn't work. But, we don't want to jeopardize a possible organic dairy in the future if we can conquer this naturally first. Obviously, I don't want to lose her and will do what it takes. Vet said she felt like we had time to try something else before going for the chemicals.

I was reading about putting Basic H in the water (ala Joel Salatin) for worms and just did that. Anything else I can try for worms? And then I also need suggestions for the lice.

[Welshmom]

I've noticed a few organic dairys that use Pivot from Crystal Creek. I am trying it with my pigs as well. You can look Crystal Creek up on line. They also have products for lice, but I'm not sure which ones.

[U-Turn]

Thank you. I'll check it out!

[Ronney]

U-Turn, I must admit to getting terribly frustrated with posts of this nature where somebody is wanting to put their lovely notion of organics before the welfare of their stock.

This cow, from your description, is in very poor condition and hair loss with patches of skin rubbed raw doesn't happen overnight so when did you last have a good look at her? Forget the organic bull------ for the time being and get something on to or into this girl that you know is going to work and get her back into good health. Your vet should be able to advise you as to the best drench for the area you live in but I would be going for a broad sprectrum such as Genisis. Give the cow some hay to help firm her up in the short term.

If that doesn't have much effect, and I suspect that it will have some, get the vet out to take bloods for diseases as well as mineral deficiencies.

Cheers,
Ronnie

[U-Turn]

Ronney,
I believe I did say that I absolutely was willing to treat her non-organically if that was what was needed and that I asked the vet if this was one of those cases, or if I could try something natural first and she said that would be fine. These are the same questions I ask when I am sick as well...can we do this naturally, or is this serious enough to mandate ignoring that route?

We do not see this cow every day up close as she is out in the field and we are not milking her. At least, not now that she doesn't come in for hay everyday. But she has always been scruffy-looking. Since the day we got her, she's never had the sleek coats of our other cows. I, frankly, didn't put it together that she was looking worse, especially since all the cows are looking a little scraggly as they shed their winter coats. The raw spots did concern me, though. Then, when we noticed the diarrhea, we immediately went to find out who it was.

Thank you for your advice. I do appreciate that you do not want to see cows mistreated. Please know that I do not intend to put any high ideals before her health/life, but I do believe that natural remedies *work* and that they are sometimes *healthier* for the cow. I will not let her go downhill any further. The advice about the hay is a good one and I will go get some out to her this morning. Thank you.

[Ronney]

I am not into organics at all but like many, try to take a middle of the road approach to the welfare of my stock - and myself. i.e. I don't throw anything and everything at them just because it's there. So I go for minimal drenching working up to worm resistance, AB's when strictly necessary etc. When stock fails to respond I have no compunction about getting the vet out to do bloods and find out what is wrong - hence I found out I had a copper and selenium deficiency and in another case, a cow that was skin and bone and it turns out she makes too many white blood cells - she has a type of leaukemia. Organics is all very well in it's place but if there are sick animals involved I don't believe in prolonging the sickness and discomfort by experimenting with something that might "work" when we now have the knowledge to do better than that. It is the overuse of this knowledge that is the problem.

I did not mean to imply that you were mistreating your cow - the fact that you have seen your vet and posted here make it obvious you have concerns for her and won't let her slip back any further. And yes, you did say that you were prepared to treat her non-organically and from what you have described, I think for the sake of the cow, that is the line you should be approaching now but that is only my opinion not having seen the cow. But I'm also thinking along the lines that she is due to calf within a couple of months and it is going to take her all of that to gain any sort of condition. She is going to need that for the growth of the calf, calving and subsequent milk production and non-organic means are going to be the swiftest means to deal with both external and internal parasites, as well as give you a quick window of opportunity to ascertain if parasites are the only problem she has.

I wish you well with her.

Cheers,
Ronnie

[ozark_jewels]

Why doesn't the vet test her for Johnes?? Rule out that and the next step will be easier.
I have to say I think that a regular deworming would be the first step after rulling out Johnes. If you want to be certified organic in the future, be aware that Ivomec *can* be used on certified organic stock if a vet deems it neccesary for the health of the animal.
Natural wormers are more preventative and have a hard time dealing with an already bad worm infestation. Especially in an animal whose health is obviously bad. Get her back on her feet, then try to preventatively use naturals if that is your desire.
You can give the cow a good wash and scrub on a good warm day(don't use cold water) to help with lice, then dust with sulfur. This should easily pass the organics regs.
If this doesn't work, you may need to pull out a product like Ultra-Boss which is what I use for lice on the rare ocasion that I see it.
I agree with Ronnie, you want to fix this as fast as possible for the sake of the cow and the calf she is carrying.

[U-Turn]

You know, I don't know why the vet didn't offer to test her. It wasn't until I left that I thought of that and called back to ask. Still waiting to hear back. I was thinking, too, that it would be best to know exactly what we're dealing with.

Thank you for the info!

[copperhead46]

I'd pour some Ivermectin down her back, that will get the lice, and help with the flies too. Hope she gets better for you.
P.J.