question about applying lime

anvoj · #1 02/25/10, 10:48 AM

Hello all,
I'm new to the board.

I'm converting a portion of some land I bought at stumpage to pasture. Something like 10-15 acres. We have 5 highlanders (which have done wonders cleaning up after the mess the loggers left) 2 donkeys and 2 horses on a total of 80 acres, mostly woods. We got the cattle last June and the donkeys in the fall for the wolves (had to dehorn the cattle after the lead cow tore up the colt a little and got worried they couldn't protect themselves anymore-so far so good). The land I'm renovating has never been worked in any way, and has lots of rocks under +/- 6" of good loam. I'm working on getting the rocks out of part of it, but it's a slow process and I figure I'll be overseeding the bulk of it. I thought I'd seed 1/3 clovers to 2/3 whatever mix the feed store recommends and see what does well. I want to avoid commercial fertilizer, but since we have 6 months of hay brought in, we'll have plenty of manure to apply.

My question is about timing this next season. I wasn't able to get it limed last fall. Should I overseed/frostseed this spring, let the animals on it when it's established, then lime and spread manure in the fall, or is that a waste of seed? Is it better to let them graze the volunteer grass this season and do it right by liming/spreading in the fall and seeding the following spring? How long should the lime sit before seeding? Could I seed in the spring then lime in July and expect regrowth in the fall?

thanks,
Tony
NW WI

Callieslamb · #2 02/25/10, 11:59 AM

Welcome to the forum. HOpefully someone will chime in on your questions with more experience than I have.

Lime simply makes your fertilizer more available to your grass. It makes your fertilizer cost effective. Does your pasture need lime? Did you do a soil test? If I didn't get mine limed in the fall, I would probably lime it as early as I could in the spring - but I don't do this for a living. LOL!!

springvalley · #3 02/25/10, 12:22 PM

Welcome from here also, same thing here you need a soil test to see what your soil is lacking. I highly suggest Midwest Bio Ag they are in WI, so they should be easy to find as I don`t have that info with me right now. They are a good biological company that tests for everything, not just a chemical company, spraying this and that and hoping they get it right. You could apply lime and seed this time of year. Good luck, best to you. Thanks Marc

anvoj · #4 02/25/10, 02:23 PM

I didn't get the soil test yet (the state does it for free, just haven't got around to doing it), but the soil in the area tends to be fairly acidic and the old timers' rule of thumb is the more lime the merrier, so I'm pretty sure I need some. I guess the main question is how long should I wait between liming and seeding, to let the lime work its way into the soil, and will liming kill off existing growth?
Also, getting lime delivered early in the spring would be tricky due to load limits which don't get lifted until early June usually (if memory serves). I'd have to find a lime distributor willing to load up my pickup. Not sure how easy that would be.

agmantoo · #5 02/25/10, 04:33 PM

Apply lime as soon as you can get on the ground. The lime will gradually breakdown because of the varying size of the granules. There is no holding period for seeding after lime application. Though it is illegal in NC for the lime truck to co-mingle the lime with other components then transport on the public highways it is not illegal to mix seed with the lime and use the lime truck to spread both lime and seed once the truck is on the farm. This is often done. Apply the lime ASAP.

anvoj · #6 02/26/10, 09:11 PM

Hi agman,
thanks for the input. It was your thread on rotational grazing that brought me to this forum actually. I learned alot there, and am looking at the worn out fields down the road with new eyes.
Because I won't be able to get a truck on the land (on account of the spring load limits) until much later than I would be able to seed, how does this sound for a plan?:

Frost seed mid March or so, depending on the weather.
Graze the new stand once it's established down to +/-6" (June or July?).
Lime and manure (not too heavily).
Graze again in the fall if the stand has recovered.
Reseed spring 2011 to thicken it up.
Lime and manure again fall 2011.

Would working the area in June/July, prior to the likely August dry spell be too hard on the new stand?
Sorry if all this is obvious stuff-it's new to me.

agmantoo · #7 02/26/10, 10:57 PM

anvoj
Welcome to the site!
What plants that cattle can eat is currently volunteering on these worn out areas that you anticipate seeding? How productive are the fields with whatever is growing on them? Frost seeding should get you started. I would not disturb the soil as the carbon layer is on the top and offers the best seed bed for your seed. With the lime applying delayed you should be able to get a soil sample before the opportunity exists to apply the lime. I would want to get the PH above 6.2 so I would apply accordingly as soon as weather permits. The frost seeded forage needs to establish a root system or the cattle will destroy the plants by pulling them out of root as they eat. What do you plan on seeding? It takes me 3 years to get new grass established to my satisfaction. We have had a very wet Winter and the wet continues. My pastures are in the worst condition from trampling the forages that they have ever been in. Weather permitting I will over seed next week using the tractor and if the weather doesn't cooperate I will seed with the four wheeler. I plan on broadcasting seed and then pull the drag harrow to get manure and mud residue smoothed and distributed creating some minimal seed coverage. I will let the cattle walk some of the seed in. Clover seed will be fed to the cattle with their mineral supplement and the cattle will distribute the seed in their waste. Being in growing zone 7, I need to get a move on as already some growth is being observed on the sunny side of the hills. I am nearly out of stockpiled grass but barring freakish weather I should make it without having to feed hay.

anvoj · #8 02/27/10, 10:20 AM

The worn out fields down the road don't actually belong to me, just get me thinking. The neighbor that has them runs beefers (baldies and odds&ends) and had to sell half the herd last fall for lack of hay. But then he doesn't work to improve the pastures. The fields I'm talking about haven't had anything done to them beyond cutting and grazing in probably 40-50 years. A couple years ago he only got 6 rounds off of the +/- 60 acres there. Margins are tight I know, but it makes me sick to see wasted land. Just like all the barns going down because people can't afford (or can't be bothered) to fix the roof.

Maybe those fields will become available at some point, and your system sounds like it does wonders to rehabilitate that kind of neglect.

What I'm working on now isn't worn out exactly, as it had always been forest before 10 years ago. Also, I wouldn't call it a field-needs alot of work over time to be able to get proper equipment on it. I don't know my grasses as well as I could. I have whatever has grown up behind the brush hog and whatever has come up out of the manure. Mostly native grasses/swamp grass I guess with the odd bit of red clover, timothy, trefoil and quack. Of course the highlanders eat just about anything, and kept good condition last season. Then again they had 60 acres or so to pick from. I think timothy and brome are the usual suspects around here, but I was going to ask at the feed store, get a mix and see what works best over time. With 1/3 clover for the N. My goal is to up my carrying capacity some and get the land into better shape. If I want to run cattle for real in the future I need to get my hands on those fields down the road.

anvoj · #9 02/27/10, 10:36 AM

Also, when you say a new stand takes 3 years to establish, do you mean you keep the animals off it for 3 years, or just that it's not at peak productivity for 3 years?
thanks

agmantoo · #10 02/27/10, 11:53 AM

It takes approximately the 3 years to get a good productive establishment of grass and legumes. I can and do graze new pasture sparingly and when the weather is optimum. I do not want the new grass to go to seed nor to develop a thatch. What takes so long is getting the carbon layer. Converting from woodland to field and correcting erosion redistributes what little beneficial soil that exists so thinly that there is not a good fertile seed bed the first few years. I have found that once established and over time the pastures continue to improve and without adding commercial fertilizer. At one time I thought that it was essential to apply commercial fertilizer at least twice per year. I no longer think that. Instead, plant legumes and native grasses and grasses that have adapted to the location. When you go to the farm store do not put a lot of faith in what information they give. They are store clerks. They are selling product, maybe product where the best return is for the store. Become extremely observant. Look the county over and determine what is working best to provide the most forage, not necessarily the best forage, for the least expense and work. I would think that fescue will grow in your area. let me know if that is true. Once you have a forage plan that is long enduring and productive you can develop a herd that can thrive off the forage that works best for you. The land is the first thing that you must adapt yourself to using. It is like working with nature rather than against nature. You may influence the lands ability but you are not going to alter it significantly in a matter of a few years. It is easier to concentrate on things that you can change such as the herd. Maybe you cannot raise large bred European blooded cattle due to the feed requirements. Possibly you can produce a profitable 550 lb feeder calf in 8 months on your lands forage instead of a 650 lb one at a loss off of forage that requires reseeding ever year or so and requires a lot of fertilizer and hay to produce. It is this concept that I have difficulty communicating to those that want to stay in the conventional rut. I prefer to do these replies in the rotational sticky above as I can share the information with those that come seeking inforamation such as yourself without retyping. If it do not mind post in that sticky if you have further questions. Thanks.

springvalley · #11 02/27/10, 11:59 AM

You really need that soil test first to see if you even need lime, and like I said have all your minerals tested on the ground as you may need something other than lime. Two years ago we ran soil tests, and found out we were low on calcium, we put on 50 tons of high cal. lime. We also needed sulfur and boron, and a few other things. Most ground is low on calcium, and that is why we have so many weeds growing, and our crops need calcium to make sugar, and if our crops are low on sugar, thats when we get pests in our crops that eat them. And yes it is best to keep cattle off the fields while you are establishing a new pasture. You can cut and bale the hay, or at least wait till fall to graze. Hope that helps some . Thanks marc.

Farm 36 · #12 02/27/10, 04:13 PM

anvoj I have seen and had the lime deliveried now before the weight restriction are in place and they come with an empty spreader and loader and put on the fields.Some townships have hard weight restrictions so this is how to get the job done

springvalley · #13 02/27/10, 10:28 PM

I really have no idea why I even make suggestions, I know I don`t live in WI, but I`m not that far, I never apply anything other than manure(compost) to my fields without a soil test every few years. So I guess unless people ask me a question I may be done giving my opinion. Good Day Marc.

anvoj · #14 02/28/10, 09:59 AM

Thanks for the input everybody.
Springvalley-yes, I will definitely get a soil test before applying anything.
Farm 36- that's a really good idea that didn't occur to me, to get the lime here in advance of the restrictions. I will look into it.
Agman-I will look into fescue and let you know what I find out in the rotational sticky.

JimB · #15 02/28/10, 10:31 AM

I have a ? that may help anvoj didnt he say that he was convertind 10-15 acres to grass land from a wooded area. Yes the first thing I always do look at the area and the tree species if thats whats there ? Doesnt coniferous trees pine, cedar like acidic soils and hardwoods cant grow in them or not well. So would a pine stand say acidic soil a hardwood stand mean less acidic and a mix mean a mix of soil. Above all the best way to know is to soil test. Agman never thought of feeding seed to cows to seed with good info thanks. God Bless Y'all

anvoj · #16 03/03/10, 10:19 AM

Jim B- the area I'm planting was a hardwood mix. Mostly red oak, birch and basswood, with maple, black ash and spruce in the lower areas. Lots raspberries and ironwood coming up since it was cut. It makes sense to me that certain types of grass would do better where certain trees did well. If anybody knows from experience what might do well in this situation in zone 3, I'm all ears. Maybe someone who has planted meadows for deer would have that kind of experience?