bloat deaths-update and new question

[greenhorn]

Thank you all so much for the ideas and links. francismilker, you described the bodies perfectly as though they'd been dead for a week out in the sun. But they'd only been dead a few hours and it was 35 degrees!

The only thing that seems possible fom what everyone has said is the "starving" that myersfarm mentioned and that they just gorged. They we the same size and age and maybe just weren't prepared for the cold we had recently. They were about 7mo. They are buried now, so the mystery may remain. Can one test the soil for those nasty organisms? How long can they live in the soil and how do you get rid of them?!?!

On a brighter note, one of the Angus cows had her calf in the night. It's a little bull calf and is up frisking around and nursing. I moved it and the mom to the pasture with access to the barn and more woodsy cover because 4 vultures had begun circling...those black ones. Maybe they were just after the afterbirth, but my neighbor had a vulture get at the eyes of a newborn calf once. Did I mention I need to get a shotgun out here?

Thanks again everyone. I'll update if anything is discovered.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

T
They are buried now, so the mystery may remain. Can one test the soil for those nasty organisms? How long can they live in the soil and how do you get rid of them?!?!



Thanks again everyone. I'll update if anything is discovered.

I still think Blackleg. Best defense is simple. Vaccinate.

[greenhorn]

Oh I will, if they haven't been already (the remaining ones). Does it seem strange at all that blackleg would kill 2 together, and animals with no wounds? I don't know how they get it, can they injest it?

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Oh I will, if they haven't been already (the remaining ones). Does it seem strange at all that blackleg would kill 2 together, and animals with no wounds? I don't know how they get it, can they injest it?

The absence of wounds isn't so strange (a critter can easily have a small unseen wound), But two at a time is dang strange. It could very well be feed related but again, if it was a matter of chronic malnutrition then 2 at a time is just as strange. You would also have seen the symptoms much sooner. What kind of condition were they in? Do you have any recent (alive) photos of them?

[tinknal]

http://cattletoday.info/blackleg.htm

BLACKLEG

Blackleg is a highly fatal disease of young cattle caused by the spore forming, rod shaped, gas producing bacteria Clostridium chauvoei. The spores of the organism can live in the soil for many years. The bacteria enters the calf by ingestion and then gains entrance to the body through small punctures in the mucous membrane of the digestive tract. Cattle that are on a high plane of nutrition, rapidly gaining weight and between 6 months and 2 years of age are most susceptible to the disease. The disease is not transmitted directly from sick animals to healthy animals by mere contact.

The first sign observed is usually lameness, loss of appetite, rapid breathing and the animal is usually depressed and has a high fever. Characteristic swellings develop in the hip, shoulder, chest, back, neck or elsewhere. First the swelling is small, hot and painful. As the disease progresses, the swelling enlarges and becomes spongy and gaseous. If you press the swelling, gas can be felt under the skin. The animal usually dies in 12 to 48 hours. In most cases the animal is found dead without being previously observed sick. The speed with which blackleg kills usually makes individual treatment useless.

Blackleg is almost entirely preventable by vaccination. The most commonly used clostridial vaccination in cattle is the 7-way type which protects against Clostridium chauveoi (blackleg), Clostridium septicum and Clostridium sordelli (malignant edema), Clostridium novyi (black disease), and three types of Clostridium perfringens (enterotoxemia).

[oneokie]

Some cattle will carry the clostridal spores in their bodys without ill effects. Something as simple as a bruise can trigger onset. Being butted by another animal, hitting a solid object, being moved in a trailer, and other simple things can trigger onset.

[myersfarm]

answer these 2 questions for me please



are you feeding anything but hay ?

are you feeding round bales that set out all year since baling ?

[myersfarm]

answer these 3 questions for me please



are you feeding anything but hay ?

are you feeding round bales that set out all year since baling ?

was the hay fertilized and the fiels limed ?

[greenhorn]

1. just hay

2. round bales that have been in a barn brought here 1 at a time every couple of days

3. no idea about the field

The person bringing the hay is also feeding the purebred black angus (3 cows, 1 bull) that I'm babysitting, so he has a vested interest in the quality of the hay.

The animals drink from a stock tank that I fill 2x per day or as needed. It is available 24/7 as is the hay/ they also have a salt block. Their shelter is a big 3 sider. Thanks!

[greenhorn]

Also, condition of calves was very good. They were Holsteins steers and showed no ribs or hip bones. Had grown very well the since we got them in August.

[agmantoo]

You may also want to research Nonprotein Nitrogen Poisoning and Nitrate Poisoning.
If cattle have been on this farm for many years passed then black leg should have shown up previously.
If the hay was treated that could have create a nitrate/urea problem. If the calves drank from other than the stock tank that could have created a toxic nitrate source.

When the dead animals were handled did you see any blood? Is so, what was the blood color?

[Madsaw]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Thank you all so much for the ideas and links. francismilker, you described the bodies perfectly as though they'd been dead for a week out in the sun. But they'd only been dead a few hours and it was 35 degrees!

.

Ok there is your answer. Blackleg. Its the only knowen one that will cause rapid bloat and death in cattle. The fact you stated they smelt so bad in just a few hrs is a very good tell thats what it was. The one I had die in the barn that was only dead maybe a hr stunk so bad I had to make 4 trips in and out of the barn to get a chain on her to pull her out. It sounds as if it was a injestion that they got the bacteria from. More then likely it was from a salt lick on the ground or might have been a slat lick there in the past. Basicly it lives in the soil forever.
If you happen to notice any other cattle walking stif legged and lethfargic, now that you know its there. Give them some penicillin right away. Then worry about calling a vet.
Bob

[Madsaw]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

You may also want to research Nonprotein Nitrogen Poisoning and Nitrate Poisoning.
If cattle have been on this farm for many years passed then black leg should have shown up previously.
If the hay was treated that could have create a nitrate/urea problem. If the calves drank from other than the stock tank that could have created a toxic nitrate source.

When the dead animals were handled did you see any blood? Is so, what was the blood color?

Agman, the give away here was the smell. Rapid death with blackleg gives off such a stink its unimaginable. They can go from eating to dead in a hr if its the right strain. Been sometime since I have done much reading on it but there is a few different strains. Best way to put it. break a dozen rotten eggs in a bucket, then insert you head and sniff deeply.
Bob

[myersfarm]

Madsaw I reread GREENHORNS post agian and I see no were he posted they smelled bad he even put oil in one's mouth trying to save it ...just that They looked like that had been died for weeks out in the sun


did they smell bad when you found them GREENHORN ?

[myersfarm]

ask the man about the field was it limed and fertilized THIS YEAR .... A man that only has 4 animls might not know the protien value of the hay...or figure he can invest in fertilizer or lime

Originally Posted by greenhorn

The person bringing the hay is also feeding the purebred black angus (3 cows, 1 bull)

!

[agmantoo]

Straight from the Merck Vet Manual "Carcasses of animals dying of NPN poisoning appear to bloat and decompose rapidly, with no specific characteristic lesions. "

Are the angus cattle being fed free choice of limited fed? Did the angus have a chance to slowly acclimate themselves to the hay/nitrates?
My cattle eat so much nitrogen from legumes if they were not accustomed to such I am certain the herd would bloat. This pic was taken a few days ago, you can see they get an early start. I do not feed extra magnesium.

[greenhorn]

Right that there was NO smell. I was trying to give the oil and I had to move one's leg out from under the hay ring. No smell. No blood either. The rectum was distended out but no blood...it did almost look like part of the intestine was coming out.

[myersfarm]

Greenhorn i would give some range cubes like 2 pounds per aniaml spread out so all can get some each day for the next week....


The rectum was distended out but no blood...it did almost look like part of the intestine was coming out.


thats sound just like I said when I was saying the hay in gut looked like the hay in the ring..almost all the way thought the animal.... real dry ... all the way just not digested

[greenhorn]

Not to belabor this, but the guy I'm babysitting the Angus for is a very experienced cattleman, 25+years...he's considered one of the "experts" in this area, not that that means he wouldn't have hay that had a problem but he felt OK giving it to his animals (really expensive animals) that are here in my pasture. I'm pasturing them since August because he moved to a house "in town" with no real place to put them and they're his daughter's who's off to college. She's reluctant to let them go (sell them) and since he's been bringing the hay every couple of days since October when the pasture gave out, I don't have a problem with them being here. The ones that died were 2 of 4 Holstein feeders that I got in August. They arrived at 3-4 months old, very healthy, castrated already, etc.

So as far as food, they've all been on my pasture (clover/grass mix) and then when it stopped growing they started getting round bales from him around mid-October. They are right outside the back door, probably 100ft from the house is where their water and shelter is so I see them anytime I look out back and I'm out there about 3x a day.

I'll definitely check out those protein blocks tomorrow if we're not snowed in. Thanks again for all the input!

[Madsaw]

Its not very often you will have a diease that will take 2 steers overnight. That is why I still suspect something fast and nasty as blackleg. The low proten hay and them eating themselves to death is a strecth. One yes 2 the same night no. I have had no experince of the I have had no experince of NPN problem agman brought up.
This leaves me thinning of 2 other things. One would be the steers found a good size batch of frozen clover or alalfa. At a bunch of it and got froathy bloat. Which by your discription the pasture been nipped down good. So, this should be ruled out. The other , now don't call me nuts. Is lighting. We did hear thunder witht eh storm that rolled through here last week in WI. There is that chance that you found the one that was slowly dies ing from teh strike.
Both of them ideas are a way out there. But I am still thinking a clostridal or a cyprto bug got them. From what you say though I would venture to say it is not cyrpto either. I will do some more research and talk to my vet and see what he thinks.
Bob