mystery bloat deaths

[greenhorn]

Hi everyone,
I call on anyone interested to play "Cow Quincy" with my most recent loss. I was greeted Christmas morning with stiff legs poking up in the pasture. I arrived to find one 8mo calf dead and blown up like a balloon and one other bloated and almost dead. I tried to treat with mineral oil, but he was too far gone and died a few minutes later.

Two 25 year cow men and a vet don't have any idea what caused this. obviously the cause of death was bloat, but where did they get it? 14 hours previously they seemed fine!

They were 8mo, we got them in Aug. at 4mo, had been castrated in aug., access only to round bales of good hay since October (no alfalfa, feed, corn, etc. to gorge on). We have had freezes, but have little left on the pasture that would poison, and would that cause bloat??

Any ideas? I hate to leave this as a mystery, though I am certainly not looking to blame anyone (namely the hay guy..he's feeding some of his own cows with that hay since we're "babysitting" a few)

Thanks to anyone who has an idea!! Oh, and they are buried now though I was tempted to do an autopsy...my guess was impacted rectum from stemmy hay.......

[oneokie]

Had the calves been vaccinated against the Clostridial diseases?

[tinknal]

First off, where are you and what has the weather been like. Do they have free access to water? How close the the water source were they? Has there been any changes in feed/water routine?

[tinknal]

Also, what vaccinations have they had?

[greenhorn]

We are in central Ohio, have had several days below freezing, a little snow, but the last few days have been warmer. They have water 50 ft. from the hay and shelter area which is always available.

What are Clostridial diseases? They were with their mom for 3 months before I got them, so they got all the good colostrum and milk. Were on pasture until october and have been getting hay from the same source since.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

What are Clostridial diseases? They were with their mom for 3 months before I got them, so they got all the good colostrum and milk. Were on pasture until october and have been getting hay from the same source since.

Clostridial disease, also called sudden death or black leg. Victims usually die in close proximity to water (within 20 feet or so). Colostrum will not prevent it.

[myersfarm]

If you are feeding protien of some kind other then hay do not read this......it is just what happen to me one year I lost a 2 year old cow and a week later a bull just like you said



I have had this before and believe it or not it is pneumonia....it is the lungs big and not the bloat..I do not understand why a vet did not know that.......

when Alive they will be taking short breaths because that is all that will fit in lungs laying on side feet sticking straight out belly looks just like bloat and so tight you could thump it like a drum...


...It also has something to do with not enough protien in the gut.. TO GENERATE HEAT ...not saying you are not feeding good hay but that calf needed more protien then the ones still walking around for there rument to work .....


..some say they are starving to death with there head in a hay bale


the low protien in gut causes them to eat and eat because they are starving...when they are starving then the cold weather gives them pneumonia.. but not a fever they will be real cold because the rumen can not generate heat..lungs would be full of fluid and ruman full of hay



range cubes is the fastest way to fix them.....you might not lose another one all winter but a little protien will fix the problem.....


This is from my experince on my farm...I cut into one and called my feed lot guy I just could not believe it starved to death...the hay in the gut was just like the hay in the bale almost all the way to rear end....except it had this grey water instead of the green stuff we see in the field......the feed lot guy said that with out heat the bugs died and could not get them going again



hope you understand why I feed some kind of suppliment with the hay


I could be wrong and if you are feeding supplement
I am

[oneokie]

http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/Infopak...dial-ebook.pdf

[Madsaw]

Originally Posted by tinknal

Clostridial disease, also called sudden death or black leg. Victims usually die in close proximity to water (within 20 feet or so). Colostrum will not prevent it.

Being close to water has nothing to do with it. A majior factor in Black leg is excavating dirt in the pasture area. All 3 cases in my area that I know of have come on after some excavating was done. First time here was removeing dirt for a spetic system, second was leveling out a new fence line. The thrid was at my neighbors. He excavated to build a new barn. We was lucky we lost 2 in our 2 occasions. The neighbor kid lost 7.
It is a bacteria that can live in the dirt for yrs. Reason some associate it with water and mud is due to cattle wallowing in the mud and it stirs up. More often then not now days its when excavting is taking place.
Black leg is fast A rapid infection can take a cow down in hours. This is when the bacteria is introduced in a large or deep wound. My first incounter was a 3 yr old jersey. We feed silage and the cow was eating fine 2 hrs after leaving the barn we found here dead in her stanchion. The stink was horrible. She got it through a wound that was healing. Second one a cows was eating at a bale feeder. She was not strangled just bloated and dead. Again the smell is unmistakeable. It took the dead truck a week to pick her up. Mind you it was winter and never got over 32, the cow ran away before they picked her up. All was left was skin and bones. Blackleg causes rapid decom.
Here is a screwy blackleg death for the 3rd time on our place. A vet made a missjudgement and gave a blackleg vaccine shot in the wrong place. This was about 2 pm. Return to the barn next morn about 7 am to find ayearling heifer just about dead. Despite all efforts the heifer died. Even a dead vaccine given wrong will cause issues. This was the answer from teh lady vets boss. I still had to pay the vet bills and still lssed a 600 heifer at that time.
So if your calves had a extremly foul smell, it is possible to have been blackleg.
Bob

[myersfarm]

with blackleg if you cut into the leg it will be black also they will creek when you bend the legs sometimes only one out of the 4 will creek

[Madsaw]

Another thing about some forms of blackleg. It will cause gas under the skin that will feel like running your hand over bubble wrap. It makes a crackling sound. If caught soon enough blackleg can be treated with common penicillin.

Bob

[Madsaw]

Originally Posted by myersfarm

with blackleg if you cut into the leg it will be black also they will creek when you bend the legs sometimes only one out of the 4 will creek

LOL, the ones I have seen dead from blackleg the last thing I would be doing is going near them with a knife. That would be the last stuff I would want to be wearing. The blood turns black in the leg areas due to the toxins released from the bacteria causing the death. It settles in the legs do to the lower amount of circulation.
Bob

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Madsaw

Being close to water has nothing to do with it.b

I think you misunderstand me. Having rode pens in a feedlot I've seen quite a few blackleg deaths. We had an issue with the killed vaccine back in the '80s. Every single one of them died within 20 feet of the waterer. Not that the water had anything to do with death, just that the blackleg caused an intense thirst.

[Madsaw]

Sorry about that Tink. What I was thinking and what my fingers typed was 2 different things. In the olden days it was highly associated with stagnet water and swapy areas.
I know what you mean about the killed vaccine. I could have kicked that lady vets ash all over the place for killing my heifer. She stuck her very low in the neck from the front. We figure it was almost a direct shot into the vein that runs between the chest and front leg. Her boss let it slip that if given wrong it would have caused it. The lady vet tryed to pass it off as allergic reaction that occured about 12 hrs after the shots were given. We had a pen mate to that heifer start showing signs the next day too. A high dose of pennicillin and she pulled out of it.
Only other thing I could think of taking down 2 cows at the same time would be frost bloat. But usally this would take a alalfa getting frost on it over night and the cattle getting in it before the frost was off. Or just to much green alalfa to begin with. But for both of them it would be the wrong time of the yr for it and also from what I read the cattle been on this pasture some time.
Bob

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Madsaw

Sorry about that Tink. What I was thinking and what my fingers typed was 2 different things. In the olden days it was highly associated with stagnet water and swapy areas.
I know what you mean about the killed vaccine. I could have kicked that lady vets ash all over the place for killing my heifer. She stuck her very low in the neck from the front. We figure it was almost a direct shot into the vein that runs between the chest and front leg. Her boss let it slip that if given wrong it would have caused it. The lady vet tryed to pass it off as allergic reaction that occured about 12 hrs after the shots were given. We had a pen mate to that heifer start showing signs the next day too. A high dose of pennicillin and she pulled out of it.
Only other thing I could think of taking down 2 cows at the same time would be frost bloat. But usally this would take a alalfa getting frost on it over night and the cattle getting in it before the frost was off. Or just to much green alalfa to begin with. But for both of them it would be the wrong time of the yr for it and also from what I read the cattle been on this pasture some time.
Bob

Yeah, 2 deaths so close together is odd. The issue we had with the vaccine was a bit different. We were using a combo vaccine that also covered rednose. We were using the killed vaccine but with the killed we would still get a few blackleg deaths. We switched to the modified live vaccine and that ended the clostridia deaths................. but we had 5000 head come down with rednose! Needless to say we switched back to the killed vaccine.

[francismilker]

I'd think if you really wanted to get to the bottom of it you could send off gut fluid samples to the lab as somewhere to get started. However, finding someone willing to cut in to a critter that's bloated up that bad would be a hard find. One of my neighbors is having something similar to this. For the last two years, at about the same time of year, in the same corral he has had a feeder steer be perfectly OK in the morning before work and come home to an animal that's bloated as if it's been there two weeks in the sun. I helped him drag one off last Tuesday and this critter was bleeding from it's rectum and mouth. The vet suggested some kind of feed toxicity.
I'm prone to believe it's something in his feed or in the ground of his corral.

[agmantoo]

Feed toxicity and hardware disease have always concerned me when feeding conventionally. Back then, I did lose a few cows or had abortions that were unexplained. When I use to grind my own feed it was amazing at the amount of metal the magnet on the grinder attracted. Since I went 100% to forage and rotating paddocks my death loss dramatically dropped. I still have a newborn calf to occasionally die or be born dead but that is about all. Lightning did kill some mature cows once since.

[Jennifer L.]

You said you're feeding round bales: Were the bloated animals by the bales? Sometimes a cow will lay down beside a partially eaten round bale, one that's been pulled apart pretty good, so that there is a slope of uneaten hay away from the main part of the bale that's left. If they lay down with their back on the downhill side they can't get a lunge going to get to their feet and end up being unable to get to their feet. When that happens they'll struggle for awhile, and finally give up, laying back on their sides with their heads down hill. The weight of the rumen will press on their heart and lungs, killing them after awhile. I won't swear that they bloat from that, but if their guts gets disarranged it's likely they can't belch, either.

I've never seen this, but my neighbor has a large Angus herd and he's had it happen several times, to the point where he now goes out every night before bed to walk around the herd to check that no one is laying down wrong by the bales.

Sorry to hear about your losses. Christmas morning on the farm can often have some unpleasant surprises. Too many for me over the years.

Jennifer