help? our new cow is losing condition

[cathleenc]

We got our new cow 10/27 - close to three weeks ago. I am completely new to looking at cows for condition (not new to sheep and goats) and I think she is looking a good bit bonier. My dairy neighbor friend told me to look at the long bones in front of her hip bones and to see if I could see the bumps - I can. Her ribs are more pronounced as are her hip bones, too.

We've been concerned about this from the beginning as she produces a large amount of milk for being such a little cow.

She is 5 yrs old, 75% jersey/25% guernsey, 3 months fresh, producing 28-32 lbs/day with a huge percentage of cream (varies by day, on Friday it was 50%!). She is about 40-42" at the hip, maybe 775-800 lb.

On the dairy she came from she produced 44 lbs/day - was fed 20 lb grain + hay + silage. We cut her grain back to 3 lb/day (enough to get her into the stanchion) plus all the alfalfa and grass hay she wants. Both kinds of hay are super quality, the alfalfa is 150 rfq/rfv. She is getting free choice minerals and salt with maybe 6-8 oz of kelp/day. She eats heartily and constantly, looks happy and content. Her poop is much firmer than it was on the dairy, not firm like sheep or goats but not runny/liquid like our neighbors commercial dairy cows. We expected it to be firmer due to the change to mostly forage. She seems very content - but thinner.

what would you have me do? look for? do you think I should do a fecal? did not worm her upon moving... maybe that's the problem? She did not seem stressed for more than the first 8 hours.

If I'm trying to stick to forage foods then what the heck can I supplement with to get weight back on her? black oil sunflower seeds? flax? sounds pricey!

I don't really want more milk..... less milk works better for us. But most of all, I want her to be healthy.

thanks,
Cathy

[topside1]

Cathy, post a quality photo of the cow. Photos speak louder than words, well most of the time. There are several folks on here that can give you a honest opinion...I'm not one of them, sorry...

[cathleenc]

Originally Posted by topside1

Cathy, post a quality photo of the cow. Photos speak louder than words, well most of the time. There are several folks on here that can give you a honest opinion...I'm not one of them, sorry...

brilliant! obvious! off to take pics as soon as it gets a bit lighter out.

(delay - camera battery needed charging - should be able to post pic by noon central time)

[Chixarecute]

A good milking cow in early lactation - first 3 mos or so, will lose weight. Some just milk so much it can be hard to keep condition on them. The issue is kind of self limiting - if they loose too much weight they will naturally cut back on milk, it's a survival mechanism. But by then you'll have a cow that is hard to rebreed.

The milk she is producing is using more calories than she is consuming. I would limit the grass hay and feed more alfalfa, provided it has good fiber. You may want to double her grain just to get her through - from 20# grain per day to 3# is a huge decrease. You may consider getting some feed grade molasses to top dress her treats with.

Eating constantly and content is good - but do you see her much lounging, laying down, chewing her cud? Cows should be able to spend as much time chewing cud as eating.

Looking forward to the pictures!

[cathleenc]

promised picture still not taken - will take soon. I promise!

Called the vet - he had promised to stop by to meet my 'pet cow' (his words) but hadn't come yet so I asked if he could come today. Happened to be in the neighborhood and stopped by within the hour. Spent some time talking things through with me, took a fecal sample just to cover all bases.

He agreed that she was thin but found her to be 'normal good cow thin' at 100 days into her lactation. Said that starting about now she should be able to stabilize her weight and be able to put on weight during the last third of her lactation and dry period. Based on the high fat content of her milk (7% at her last test on the dairy) she needed about the same energy input as a holstein milking 60 lb/day (3.5% fat) - and I should try to add 1-2 lbs of more energy-packed concentrates to her daily diet. I'm going to try upping her normal grain and see if that helps, give it 2-3 weeks to see. If that fails then try roasted soy beans or cottonseed or black oil sunflower seed. We're hoping to keep milk from increasing! He said that could be tricky still - but at 150 days or so into her lactation it would be easier to get her to keep calories on instead of putting them into the milk bucket.

So I feel better and have a plan. I'm relieved to know that both she is not scary thin and that I did recognize she is getting thin.

Off to finish a bite of lunch and then to take the pictures.

to answer Chixarecute questions: the alfalfa is really good quality, not too coarse or stemmy, 2 cutting. She gets maybe 3 bales of alfalfa to 1 bale of grass and you can see her take about 3 bites of the alfalfa then move over to the grass and take a bite of that. She does lay in the sun and chew her cud often. The grain was reduced over the course of maybe 10 days from the 20 lbs to the 3 lbs - the farmer who sold her to me started reducing it, on my request, before we picked her up so that it would not be a sudden shock and she could adjust to it.

[Madsaw]

Cathy,
A guernsey jersey cross will look like a walking skelton when they are milking hard. Guernsey are thin cows to begen with. What is the type of grain you are feeding her? With out knowing what it is right now I would recomend feeding like a dairy 38 pellet. Or best is call the mill and see what they have. I know there is a few places you can get different supplments around here. Anything from pellet form distiller to gueltine. With a high fat and the amount she is milking she is burning up everything she eats and then some to make the milk.
Later
Bob

[Chixarecute]

Glad to hear you, and she, are right on track. Your vet's advice was dead on. Maybe you'll have to get some pigs to feed the extra milk to?

[agmantoo]

I never want to see more than 2 ribs on a side of any cow I own.

[willow_girl]

It never hurts to worm them.

[Farm 36]

Sound like you got a good start on addressing the issue .I would ask your feed mill for some help in this area of nutrition if not the vet might be able to be some help but remember that they are doctors not nutritionist. Your cow is doing a good job and is producing more than you are feeding her or able to consume . We now have dairies that are adverageing 100lb a day in the tank and most cows will peak over 200lb a day and dry up giving over 70 lbs. So this means if feed properly they will milk .Your cow the more you feed the more milk and less feed she will lose more weight . If your vet is out I would have a johnes test done to see if that is a possiblity for weight lose .Feeding 15 to 18 lb rolled or cracked corn and read the lable on a dairy premix will get you close to meeting her needs and alfalfa hay that is over 180 rfv.

[Madsaw]

Originally Posted by Farm 36

Sound like you got a good start on addressing the issue .I would ask your feed mill for some help in this area of nutrition if not the vet might be able to be some help but remember that they are doctors not nutritionist. Your cow is doing a good job and is producing more than you are feeding her or able to consume . We now have dairies that are adverageing 100lb a day in the tank and most cows will peak over 200lb a day and dry up giving over 70 lbs. So this means if feed properly they will milk .Your cow the more you feed the more milk and less feed she will lose more weight . If your vet is out I would have a johnes test done to see if that is a possiblity for weight lose .Feeding 15 to 18 lb rolled or cracked corn and read the lable on a dairy premix will get you close to meeting her needs and alfalfa hay that is over 180 rfv.

But, in this case as with any cattle that are not getting much corn. Their corn intake needs to be increased slowly so they do not get sick and die from corn overload. A increase in fat intake should help bring the condition back.
I would doubt its Johnes'. Knowing the cattle breeds and they way they milk it can explain alot about the condition of the cow. I will try to dig up a pic of my cow I call Aggie. Such a pitiful site she is. You can feed her till he eyes pop out when she is milking and will put it all in the milker not on her body. She should be huge being half Swiss and half Guernsey. But she got the swiss frame and the boney fitures of the guernsey.
Bob

[Cliff]

I look at the problem a little differently. I think I read that you are drowning in milk?

So instead of increasing her feed to support the milk production, I'd slow her milk production down. In fact, I usually slow my Jerseys down to around a gallon a day. Still too much for us but I sell a couple gallons a week to family.

If you empty her she will continue to produce all she can. I'd work her down to once a day milking then slow her further if needed by not milking her out completely. Easier and cheaper for you. If you decided to do this you'd probably even need to reduce her feed intake to help slow the milk down, then adjust from there depending on how much milk you want and her condition.

[cathleenc]

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/A...NAME=snapfish/

3 pics are posted 2 posts below this - 2 more pics available online if you want to go looking. I was pretty slow to figure out how to get them posted in this thread...

thanks,
Cathy

[Trisha in WA]

liff,
Won't not milking out completely lead to mastitis?
Trisha~who is also swimming in milk

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Trisha in WA

liff,
Won't not milking out completely lead to mastitis?
Trisha~who is also swimming in milk

Not as long as you're careful. Milk her partially out to avoid physical damage that could be caused by an overfull udder. Since milk production is supply/demand she will start slowing down. Use your judgment on when to go to once a day milking. We started doing this years ago, and have read of several other people here doing the same thing (and being thrilled with the reduced chore time and milk amount.)
Also very important, cut feed drastically to slow milk production. You can go back up on it if you need later according to condition.
Now if a cow had a sub-clinical mastitis you might cause a flare up by leaving milk in the udder, but then you could treat for the mastitis and get it under control. You'd probably know if your cow had this as it tends to flare up at freshening.

[cathleenc]

[topside1]

Keep in mind I don't have a good dairy eye...but from what I see she looks like a normal dairy cow in milk...

[Cliff]

The manure all over her back end concerns me. I'd have her tested for Johne's. Can we see a pic of one of her poo patties? Does manure shoot out of her, like really loose?
Why did the dairy sell her to you? Johne's is becoming more prevalent in dairies and some of them will quietly sell the cows off to individuals as they get more than they would at the sale. We had to deal with this a couple of times. The biggest problem (aside from your new cow having a non-treatable condition) is that Johne's stays alive in your soil for a long time - up to a year I think - so you can't put a new cow on the same land for a while. One of our old favorite Jerseys got infected from bringing her back to our smaller farm too soon.

[cathleenc]

she has nice, firm patties. No shooting, no liquid. She did have quite the case of nervous poop the day she was transported - not once since. She was black on the back that day.... I've got most of it off, but not all.

The farm she came from has been Johannes free for over 5 years, closed farm. I'm not worried but I appreciate you sharing your concern. Always good to consider everything!

she was sold because she is at least 12" shorter than any other cow on the place - too small for the equipment.

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by cathleenc

she has nice, firm patties. No shooting, no liquid. She did have quite the case of nervous poop the day she was transported - not once since. She was black on the back that day.... I've got most of it off, but not all.

The farm she came from has been Johannes free for over 5 years, closed farm. I'm not worried but I appreciate you sharing your concern. Always good to consider everything!

she was sold because she is at least 12" shorter than any other cow on the place - too small for the equipment.

That's awesome. It's rare to have a safe dairy to buy cows from.