Question for Agmantoo re. heavy rain and rotational grazing

[RosewoodfarmVA]

Agmantoo, just had a quick question as to how you deal with storms like the one we're having now. Do you adjust your grazing pattern once you know a storm is coming so that the herd is near the woods, or do you just leave them confined in the open? All our pastures have a little bit of wooded area within them or along the fenceline and all the cows huddle under the trees in the worst rain, and I was thinking "I wonder what Agman does with heavy rain." Are you concerned about the calves in this kind of weather? Thanks!


PS For those who don't know, we on the east coast have gotten 3-4 inches of rain already since yesterday and they are calling for another 6-8 inches of heavy rain before this system has passed us over. Tis' a gullywasher for sure!

[agmantoo]

Hi Rosewoodfarm

It has not gotten cold enough yet to create a problem for the calves. I do not want a cow having a calf in standing water however. Therefore I am moving forward as per usual with one exception. The exception is that with the hills and valleys on the farm, I have restricted the the herd to the hillsides where I do get a lot of runoff from the heavy rains. Even so, the hillsides are getting torn up to resemble a hog wallow. 496 moving hooves confined to an area of less than an acre in size churn up a lot of mud. Once the storm is over and it is dry enough to support a tractor and harrow, I will attempt to savage the area by overseeding both rye grass and fescue. I may even broadcast some cereal rye to act as a nurse crop.

[Farm 36]

I have seen good luck with when the cattle that are on wet ground to leave them on for 12 hours or less and move them . If they are on a short time the grass does well and will come back better but you can't let it turn to a sloppy mess. But I do live on a differt type of ground .

[SteveO]

Morning All,
Would increasing the area to3-5 Acres help to min. the damage or would it just
destroy a larger area.
Agmantoo i know you dont import feed but would a couple of round bales in a smaller area be easier to fix or worse?
As normal more questions than answers
Steve

[agmantoo]

I am not altering the amount of grass being provided but continuing to adhere to my going into Winter preparation. If I were to increase the area IMO I would only be increasing waste of forage and increasing the area to be repaired. In years paste when I did feed hay in such conditions as we are experiencing the cattle would be up to their belly in mud. Bale feeding takes 3 large round bales per day and the tractor needed to deliver the feed would also make ruts. The herd is probably 1500 feet from where hay would be available. At this time the mud is about 6 inches deep in the grazed paddocks that were the wettest. I had rather have a limited area recuperating than lesser damage in a much larger area. Once it dries some, it should not be a lot of work to repair the damage. I have a salvage project were I am trying to reclaim waste land of 2 plus acres on a steep hillside. This area is more concerning as it is more subject to erosion. I have not been to the project in a couple of days but I am concerned it will be bad news.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

The temps here have dropped off considerably with a steady rain for the last 3 days now (we've gotten probably 5-6 inches so far) and I've been giving hay both for extra feed and to keep the herd from moving around the pasture so much. Noticed this morning that one calf was missing and found him dead laying next to a tree trunk at the wooded edge. I guess even with some shelter they can get wet through and can't stay warm enough. He was about 4mo so I wouldn't have guessed he'd have any trouble. Seems like every couple of years I lose a calf or 2 in a wet/cold spell like this. I hate it but can't figure out what to do about it. Rarely do I see any signs of sickness or behavior beforehand.

The pasture they are on is about one acre (with 15 head) so it has some pugging about 3 inches deep but the plant rootmat is still holding so not a lot of mud. The cows are staying on the upper dry end for the most part and I'm putting some hay out there to keep them there. I've hesitated moving them because this pasture needs seeding anyway and the next isn't regrown to the height I'd like to graze without stressing the plants, so I've been feeding hay for about a week now. I have plenty of other pasture but it's all about 6 inches in height and I'm leaving it alone for now to allow the plants to store up energy before winter.

In past winters I've kept the herd in one pasture all winter during hay feeding season then just reseeded that pasture in the spring, but I'm considering what Joel Salatin proposes in his book Salad Bar beef where he has a large open shed where the herd is confined and he feeds all the hay and allows manure to build up there, then cleans it out in the spring. I guess the advantages are you don't lose calves due to cold/wet conditions and also the body heat and lack of wet means that the herd needs less feed to maintain good condition. Disadvantages are that the manure isn't spread evenly and it's much more work to spread and clean up in the spring, besides the obvious that the cows will be in a feedlot condition in a shed rather than on open pasture. In my situation with selling hay along with the cows, rotational grazing all through winter is not really feasible as we usually have a quantity of poor hay or moldy/dusty hay that can't be sold and needs to be fed here on the farm. I just don't know if it's best to continue as we are doing with feeding on pasture or if I should confine the herd under roof and feed there. I've also thought perhaps a small shed with boards on the sides where a calf can slip through but not the cows. Will the calves use the shed though if the cows choose to bed down elsewhere? Does anyone here confine the herd in the winter and if so how has it worked for you? Agman what do you do if this kind of weather comes in the freezing form?

[agmantoo]

RosewoodfarmVA

Sorry about your losing a calf. The calf died too soon following the weather change so I can not attribute the death to the current storm. Are you giving your calves a 7 way vaccine? A four month old calf should have survived this rain storm and the weather shift. As you are aware my herd calves year around. Even a newborn calf can tolerate a lot worse weather than we just encountered.

IMO, the problems related to respiratory issues will increase if you confine the animals. Bacteria problems will also increase with more exposure to concentrated manure. I have reached these conclusions by observing those that raise bottle calves.

If you do what Salatin suggests make certain that you do not set the area up with clay soil that will compact. We do not get cold enough weather to break up the resulting compaction. It will take years for the soil to recover.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

The calf was one that I had raised on a bottle, and had weaned about a month ago and put in with the others. He was healthy and had a nice gut and was eating good. All the other calves are Angus that have their mamas to nurse off of. I got to thinking about it and it seems to me that he fared worse because he was weaned already where the others that were the same age could go to mama and get a drink if they were chilled or felt down. The other calves are fine in the rain and I guess that made the difference, even though they don't need mama all the time it helps them get through times like this where a bottle calf really needs good weather if he's gonna make it on just grass and grain.

I understand your concerns about bacteria and soil compaction. I share the concern about animal health though I may disagree about the compaction, meaning that if I concentrate feeding it would be in a permanent place every year so just a small area, less than 1/2 acre, would be compacted. Permanently compacting one-half acre under roof may be better than compacting several acres of pasture over a period of time with grazing in soggy weather.

I am transitioning out of raising bottle calves to an Angus only herd and do you think with only cow-calf pairs, no calves on their own, that shelter for the herd on pasture during storms will become a moot issue? In other words will I not have to worry about the calves as long as their mama is there, or are there still times in the cold winter that you wonder how your calves are faring?

[agmantoo]

RosewoodfarmVA
You did not answer the vaccine question. I would give all the bottle calves that shot.
I have, in the past, had my herd concentrated as you mentioned but without shelter. When held in close quarters I would see a lot of snot blowing which is seldom observed when they are rotational grazing.
I certainly do believe that calves on mamma have far less problems. I also believe that I can produce a calve off mamma for about the same costs as a bottle calf and have a better calf.
As far as shelter, I have seldom given that a consideration as I have not experienced any recognized negative consequences.
I do understand that you have marginal hay that you want to use. I have read that 5 grazed animals can be kept for the cost of a single housed animal. I do not think that Winter feeding of marginal hay will permit you to carry more animals on a specific number of acres. I am not saying to not have an emergency quantity of hay in reserve. As you know I have 16 days of hay held for such needs. I am of the opinion that you should sell the marginal hay at a discount if necessary, but greater than the fertilizer value contained therein, to goat and cattle people and recognize that income. Continue to concentrate on the rotational grazing and the feeding of a better forage to the herd and thus gleaning those benefits. You can have both! Some money from the marginal hay plus rotational grazing has greater merit than feeding the hay and not concentrating on the stockpiling of forage.
I concern myself that the marginal hay is a security blanket and that blanket has a hole in it.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

No they have not received any vaccinations.

I did not mean concentrated without shelter I meant concentrated under a roof. This would protect the herd from rain and also keep the manure in a dry condition so as to avoid leaching and runoff. I also agree that you can raise a calf on mama for == what you could do a bottle calf. In your operation you have virtually no input $$ and basic management does not change whether 50 cows or 200. So yes you can produce a good calf on little $$ for little effort. We have done bottle calves in the past because our land is limited and we have to maximize $$ return per acre, not $$ per labor. However I am convinced that bottle calves are not as healthy as calves on mama and the effort and $$ put into bottle calves can be lost very quickly (as I saw this morning). The continuation of raising bottle calves even though we have the Angus is so that we can slaughter the bottle calves for our own use while having black calves for sale. Once the herd is built up somewhat larger I think we will just pull our own slaughter calves from that herd and cease raising bottle calves.

RE the hay, I can make more $$ selling good hay vs feeding it (hence a 2 part operation, hay sales and cows). The average of 50 bales per winter = $200 at current prices, plus the land that that cow pastures all summer = another $300 value of hay that could have been cut. I can make $500 by cutting the pasture land for hay to sell and by not feeding hay to a cow in the winter (selling hay) which is more than that cow will give in value of a calf. However not all hay is saleable. We have various batches that get rained on, end up moldy due to excess moisture, or have a lot of broomstraw or other undesireable plants. Selling marginal hay at cost is not doable unless it is a drought year with little hay available. Hay here is going for $3 a bale horse quality and $2 for cow hay because of the surplus of hay. Fertility value alone is close to that. I've lost some $3 a bale customers because 'soandso' up the road is selling it out of the field for $1 a bale. My only way of realizing additional $$ is to keep hay until winter and follow the normal market swing up during that time. By selling good hay at $5 a bale, we are realizing $3 more profit than fertility value. As we load up a sale load of hay any dusty bales or moldy bales get put aside for cow feed. By feeding waste hay we are recycling that fertility back into the soil. I do not think that I could sell marginal hay for $1.50, fertility value, even then I would be in a == basis, selling hay vs grazing. I also tend to feed seedy hay on pastures that need seeding so that the seed will drop out and get trod in.

If every batch of spring hay turned out perfect I would sell only spring hay and stockpile/graze the fall growth. We have stockpiled our pastures of fall hay and basically only cut for hay the field we tend on the neighbor's farm, not cutting any of our own fields. We intend to graze those this fall and winter though at this time they are only 6 inches or so in height as we were short on water this fall until recently. Hence my feeding hay this early as opposed to grazing. I'm more concerned with allowing the plants to regrow and store up reserves than I am with pasturing them. Also we spread the manure loads on the pastures where the cows are, and they trample it in and leave their own too. It's amazing how we can spread a load of manure and the manure will be showing on top, but after a day the cows have trod it down and packed it into the soil so that you can't even tell you spread there. I agree that 5 cows can be kept on pasture vs one on hay, if we assume the cost of fuel and labor of cutting and baling is included. Also it seems that the cow can harvest more efficiently while also returning fertility. The marginal hay we are referring to mostly came from tended land not on our farm, most of our land is fenced and is in the pasture rotation though we cut a lot of hay off of it in spring because of an excess of growth that cannot be utilized any other way. The feeding of marginal hay is not taking any land out of the rotation or stockpiling, but is in addition to it.

I guess with regards to the shelter you see no need of providing shelter. I am appreciative of that as I am trying to figure out what is the best system for winter management of the herd.

One more question. You mentioned in another post that you salvage the paddocks that you graze during wet weather by seeding rye and fescue back once the ground has dried. I am assuming since you move daily that by the time the ground has dried somewhat the herd is several paddocks away. Do you retrace your steps and return the herd to the damaged land so they can walk the seed in, or do you seed in some other way?
PS I appreciate your patience with me as I'm on a new learning curve as I'm transitioning things here.

[agmantoo]

RosewoodfarmVA

I strongly suggest that the bottle calves get the 7 way vaccine. These calves did not necessarily get the resistance built to many problems that lurk on a farm. The calves on the mamma cows develop protection to everything that momma is resistant to.

I fully concur with the manner you are handling the short grass in the paddocks. I would feed the marginal hay until either the hay is exhausted or until the forage has absolutely stopped growing. I always expect to get some growth until January on the fescue. Once you go onto the forage in the paddocks feed the tallest grass first. Try to control the grazed height to hold the grass at least 3 plus inches or taller. In so doing the Spring grow will be much better/quicker and afford some good hay to be harvested with the surplus. The work of feeding is easier accomplished during times before the weather turns bad. Also, the cattle are not needing the extra energy in the milder weather and the marginal hay will meet their needs.
I am still distributing some cereal rye seed using the seed slinger on the tractor 3 point hitch and I am simultaneously pulling the worn drag harrow off the drawbar. On the damaged paddocks, with the wet weather, I will not be permitting the cattle to trod the seed in. I will increase the seeding rate by 20% instead. I already have too much compaction and some of the forage will survive provided it does not get trample more. The muddy mess from yesterday appeared less today after last nights rain washed some of the mud from the remaining few plants.

As for the shelter, I believe is will create more problems than it will fix. Buy a few bred heifers with the money saved. Vaccinating the bottle calves and transistioning to a cow/calf operation with the angus will do a lot. My calf loss rate is less than 3 percent for the year and I was the cause for one of them. I moved the herd a long distance and the calf got left behind. By the time I became aware of the problem it was IMO too dehydrated to save and I put it down.

My confidence in you has never waivered. Your dedication to the tasks at hand and your perseverance are impressive and will carry you far.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

double post oops!

[RosewoodfarmVA]

Is it too late to sow rye or crimson clover for winter grazing? I take it that you are saying that with the soil moisture high enough that the seed can be broadcast without covering/trampling and it will still germinate well?

I broadcast 10lbs/acre of crimson clover on about 10 acres from early Sept to late Oct as the herd was rotated, allowing them to trample it in. It has germinated well, and I'm hoping to gain additional winter grazing as well as more N for the fescue and let it go back to seed in the spring. Between the fields that have been seeded (which I will not graze until the clover has grown a bit) and the fields with grasses to short, I am having to mark-time the herd. Hay supply is not an issue as we have had a surplus of hay this year. I could feed hay all winter if needed, so I'd rather manage the grazing to take care of the pasture, feeding hay as needed to allow the pasture recovery time. So far the pasture they are on has held up pretty well with the sod layer being strong enough to hold for the most part. Only a few places have turned into mud, the rest is still plant crowns and sod. I do not anticipate having to seed fescue except to thicken the sod, but do you think there's still time to broadcast rye or crimson clover or is it too late in the fall to give it time to germinate and make growth? Do you think fescue broadcast at this time will do well or should I wait until spring?

[agmantoo]

Cereal rye will definitely germinate but may not get tall enough to contribute to Winter grazing. However, it will grow as Spring approaches and provide forage. The crimson clover will not provide any Winter grazing but will burst forth as we come out of Winter. The cereal rye is cheap and will make a nurse crop to aid other grasses and clover. All of the above will contribute to the improvement of the soil and will help stabilize the pastures against erosion. Any effort that will contribute to the improvement of the soil and the reduction of the need for commercial fertilizer has merit IMO and is worthwhile. I will pull some type of drag behind the broadcasting, either the worn harrow or a homemade drag made from heavy weight chain link fence. This late in the season we do need some cover to help protect the seed. If the area being planted is subject to jackfrost then the sprouted seeds will perish. Did you see the pics in the sticky above of the mess I have?

[genebo]

The clover can be a danger come spring. If you seed it too heavily, the cattle could be in danger of bloating. Go easy on the seed and put out bloat blocks as soon as the grass starts growing in spring. I use the Sweetlix bloat blocks available through Southern States.

I used crimson clover one year. It was finished as soon as it was grazed. Didn't recover. Then I used ladino white clover. It did better, but the cattle liked it so well they would eat it as soon as it sprouted. I couldn't get it established. Then I used some Pennington Patriot white clover. It must not taste as good as the ladino. It quickly proliferated until the paddock seeded with it was almost solid clover.

One cow lost her calf due to bloat after grazing that pasture. A goat nearly was lost two years in a row. After a few years of overseeding that pasture with fescue, it finally has a decent ratio of clover to tall grass. I still put out the bloat blocks, though.

I keep a supply of TheraBloat on hand, too.

Too much clover is not a blessing.

One year I had a bumper crop of rye. I baled it. As the drought set in that summer I began feeding it. They liked it at first, but by the time I really needed it, they quit eating it. The smell changed. An old farmer told me that rye hay always did that. I haven't seeded any rye since then.

If you have a paddock that can lay fallow all winter, try seeding it with winter wheat. You won't get much top growth over the winter, but the roots will grow deep. Up to 3 feet deep. In spring it will shoot up. After grazing or haying it will die. All the roots will decay and form channels for water to travel up through the soil. During the summer drought, the pasture that had winter wheat on it will stay green the longest.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

[Valmai]

Rosewoodfarm I really dont know anything about your climate but over here it is not the rain it is the windchill which will kill animals. Ours dont need a roof over their heads but they do need shelter from the wind when they are wet.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

Valmai that seems to be the case also with rain, not the rain itself but the wind and cold, which the wet hair cannot insulate against. I'm considering using a shed just during cold/wet spells like we get occasionally throughout winter. Not a regular feeding area but I think moving the cows there only during really bad weather may avoid the negatives of concentrated manure and cows while providing the cows and especially the calves a place to get dry and conserve body heat.

Gene, I have heard of clover being a problem but have never had any problems in the past. We have a lot of red clover in our fields as we have seeded it and it thrives under rotational grazing/hay cutting management. Alot of volunteer white clover comes up too and thrives when the pasture is being grazed but is quickly covered by the grasses and red clovers if we allow to grow up for hay. I have not applied commercial fertilizers in many years because we are spreading about 10 tons/acre of horse manure per year in addition to what the cows drop. Clover seems to thrive under this condition even germinating and growing where it has not been seeded. This then causes the grasses to do better. I will usually give some dry hay before moving the cows if the pasture they are going to is heavy with clover, though often the clover is 50% or greater without any signs of bloat.

We have one field that has alot of annual rye, though how it got there I don't know, probably some seed was in a batch of manure spread on that field. The cows always go to that first when we turn them in in the spring and will not touch the fescue or other grasses until they've eaten all the rye. We have not baled it for hay though. I have seeded wheat a few times on bare places and it hasn't done too well. Perhaps I didn't cover it properly I don't know. I do not have a drill though it would be nice to have one, but my options are broadcast with the cows, or disk and seed and drag. I am opposed to disking due to the disturbance of the soil and destruction of the present plants.

I seeded about 6 acres of new ground with orchardgrass, fescue, and ladino clover. All of it germinated and did well for a few months, though the ladino quickly died out (or the deer ate it all up as it is in a remote part of the farm). Anyway, no clover at all, and we did not graze that field for 3 years, so the cows couldn't have done it. Also the orchardgrass just didn't have the get-up-and-go required to hold its own, the field is now 80% fescue. I have heard of ladino being used in a pasture setting but it didn't do well here. But wherever I don't seed clover it tends to come up on its own, both from natural seeds and also because we always cut our clover hay with some gone to seed, and feed that where we want to introduce it. I think the soil is conducive to it due to the high organic matter.

I think I am tending toward clovers instead of rye or wheat because of the nitrogen fixation factor rather than extracting N (though if it's grazed it is returned to the soil after a while).

Agman I saw your mud, ours is not nearly that bad though. It seems to be a perfect time for you to seed it again. My guess would be though that there are enough plant crowns and rootlets left to resprout if grazing is withheld. I've noticed that often when the cows have badly trampled an area it will come back thicker, though not as tall, than it was before. More blades and less stalks. Perhaps as they destroy the mat of roots each root becomes a new plant.

On another note, the Reed Canary Grass continues to be a favorite! They will graze it down to the crowns before touching the other grasses, even eating the seedheads and stalks, only eating the clovers at the same time. I've seeded it in several more low places and it thrives but puts me in a bind as I want it to get well established before I graze it. If I overseed it I can't graze for about a year. Also I have noticed that while it greens up in the spring just shortly after fescue, and stays growing well through the summer, moreso than fescue, it goes dormant early, about mid Sept. The plants are very spreading and will creep and send up shoots. The 2 year old plants are in clumps of about 8 inches diameter now, though not rough clumps but leafy mats.