Not doing too well at planning ahead....

[Jackie]

We are in the process of setting up a homestead of sorts. Right now all we have is 160 acres that is fully fenced with a good perimeter fence. I have 7 horses, 3 ponies and 2 dexter heifers. The horses are moving onto the land in a month and the heifers are coming home after they get bred. THe heifers are going to calve next May if this years breeding goes well.

Now I asked before on here and realized there is no reason why I can't have the cows and horses together. So I am not cross fencing the land. I want to have a trail ride business and so I don't want to have a bunch of fences and gates in the way! lol!

I TOTALLY forgot that I am going to have to have a place to wean the calves. We are building a very large corral that will serve as a holding pen/pony dry lot/riding arena, etc. The ponies will live in it most of the time and when I want to ride in the arena or bring the pasture animals in I am going to have some smaller working corrals attached to the side that I can put the ponies in.

Now my question is, can I put the calves in with the ponies to wean them? (provided the ponies are cool with it). When can I put the calves back out on pasture with the mommas? Or can I?

I guess I am going to need a bull corral as well in a few years. FOrgot about that too! Can I put the bull out with the cows when it's time for breeding and leave them out there until the calves are born? Or is that stupid? I mean, once the cows are pregnant, they are pregnant...right?

Can you tell I am new at this cow thing?

I need to figure this all out soon because it's fairly expensive to rent a post pounder and we are planning on doing all the fencing for all the corrals in one shot (at LEAST pounding all the posts).

[gone-a-milkin]

Oh boy! You are gonna want to fence the heck out of your place I think.

Start saving now for your cross-fences. LOL!

[GoldenMom]

Let me see if I read this correctly (sometimes I don't!). You didn't want cross fencing so you don't have to open/close gates-so you will be taking trail rides on your property? You will probably want to have a bull for your cow herd some day and you want to leave said bull in with the cows for several months (which is pretty OK cow-wise, I think). So in a few years when you have this bull in with the cows will you be trail riding through area where there is no fence between you and the bull? I know it is unlikely that anything would happen, but I can't imagine the liability!

I vote lots of cross fencing too!

[Ronney]

Mmm, I tend to agree with the fencing bit too. You really are going to have to make up your mind as to whether you want to farm or have a trail ride business and if you want both, can you cut off part of the farm so that it can be farmed separately from the rest. Weaning calves in with horses is not always a smart move and your not going to know this until you try it and see how the ponies react - unfortunately many horses see lambs and calves as footballs which is not always conducive to their wellbeing.

Cheers,
Ronnie

[Jackie]

Ya, I guess I would be riding around the cattle and that would include a bull. I have rode though fields with bulls many times and I never thought of it being a problem. I supposed I could always bring the cattle into a holding type pasture on weekends when I have trail riders. My plan is to only have rides for a few hours on the odd weekend. Maybe someday it will get busier.

What happens if I only get one calf next spring. Can I really wean it all alone?

And I also do need to know when I can put the weaned calves back in with the cows. I am only going to have two at the most for the first few years.

[francismilker]

Jackie,
I would think that having a perimeter fence alone would be alright. As you know, there won't be any way to rotate your stock from pasture to pasture in order to better utilize the grasses, but with only 7 horses and two head of cattle you should'nt have to worry much about overgrazing unless you have mostly timberland. As far as weining calves and keeping a bull separated from the cows, I'd suggest sectioning off about five acres fenced around the large corral that you're building to keep your ponies. You can keep the bull and the weinlings in with your ponies for the first few days after separating them from their mothers until the initial shock of weining is over, then move them outside to the five acre pasture until weining is complete.
Another option that works as long as you don't mind the little less money is to simply "wein the calves at the salebarn". When you're only dealing with a few head of cattle you can't neccessarily say you're in it to make a living and if you simply load them up at 6-7 months of age and take them from their mothers straight to the sale you don't have to worry about escape artists.
Likewise, with just a couple cows you may not want to deal with keeping a bull all year long. You might consider either renting a bull for three months a year or going to the sale and buying one, letting him do his business, and then taking him back to the salebarn.

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by francismilker

Jackie,
I would think that having a perimeter fence alone would be alright. As you know, there won't be any way to rotate your stock from pasture to pasture in order to better utilize the grasses, but with only 7 horses and two head of cattle you should'nt have to worry much about overgrazing unless you have mostly timberland. As far as weining calves and keeping a bull separated from the cows, I'd suggest sectioning off about five acres fenced around the large corral that you're building to keep your ponies. You can keep the bull and the weinlings in with your ponies for the first few days after separating them from their mothers until the initial shock of weining is over, then move them outside to the five acre pasture until weining is complete.
Another option that works as long as you don't mind the little less money is to simply "wein the calves at the salebarn". When you're only dealing with a few head of cattle you can't neccessarily say you're in it to make a living and if you simply load them up at 6-7 months of age and take them from their mothers straight to the sale you don't have to worry about escape artists.
Likewise, with just a couple cows you may not want to deal with keeping a bull all year long. You might consider either renting a bull for three months a year or going to the sale and buying one, letting him do his business, and then taking him back to the salebarn.

Thank you. I want to build up a small herd of Dexters by keeping my heifer calves. We will probably keep the first steer to eat...If I can force myself to do it. THe rest of the steers will be for sale. I don't want any more than 10 cows. But it will take me a few years to get to that point.

I WONT have a bull next year, or even the next. I think it would be cheaper to borrow one. Most people around here have calves that are born late winter, early spring. I want mine bred for late spring early summer. So maybe people will be done with theirs when I want to use it. Just trying to think ahead.

A five acre holding pasture would be about right. THere is a hill that slopes down away from the house and goes all the way down to the road (half mile long). I forgot that I planned on fencing off a large chunk of that for calving cows. I want to be able to see them from my window. That wont interfere at all with the trail ride stuff because it's just an open meadow. I don't need to ride through that.

[wr]

If you leave your bull with your cows till your calves are born, you must realize that you're going to mess up your planned calving dates, unless you remove him as the first calf is born but one generally calves over a period of time and you could very well have calves being born and cows who have calved earlier could be cycling.

If you're planning on only building a perimeter fence, I would strongly encourage you to at least build yourself a small multi use pen. You'll find you will use it far more often than you expect. You can use it as a quarantine area if you bring new stock in and you'll have a reasaonable maternity/hospital pen. If you can't do it right off, look at buying some portable panels at farm auctions and use them.

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by wr

If you leave your bull with your cows till your calves are born, you must realize that you're going to mess up your planned calving dates, unless you remove him as the first calf is born but one generally calves over a period of time and you could very well have calves being born and cows who have calved earlier could be cycling.

If you're planning on only building a perimeter fence, I would strongly encourage you to at least build yourself a small multi use pen. You'll find you will use it far more often than you expect. You can use it as a quarantine area if you bring new stock in and you'll have a reasaonable maternity/hospital pen. If you can't do it right off, look at buying some portable panels at farm auctions and use them.

Thanks!

Sorry. I didn't mean leaving him out with the cows ALL year, just until about a month before calving. I want to know when my cows are going to calve, but I also want my bull to be happy and not lonely.


The perimeter fence is already there. That's the good part. It's a really nice tight 4 wire cow fence.

I do plan on building catch corrals, chutes, a riding arena that can serve as a holding pen, etc. I just don't want a big fence right across the middle of the whole quarter section. I like the idea of the big open spaces and letting the animals do as they please (within reason).

I want to use some panels to make a portable and washable quarantine area behind the house away from the other animals so they can't even touch noses. I have a 'thing' for finding crappy looking horses and bringing them home. I am also going to be working with a horse rescue up there and probably fostering horses so bad that people were giving them away. I am sure I will make good use of a quarantine pen.

[wr]

If you're leaving your bull out with the cows up until close to calving, that means you're going winter him out and it certainly can be done but you absolutely must bed very deep. Frostbite on testicles affects can cause serious problems ranging from low fertility to no fertility. Because of our climate, I'm deadly serious about having my bulls semen tested in the early spring, not shortly before they go out. I've never had one test bad but I've heard of people who have and last minute is not the best time to be hunting a bull. Since you're starting small, why don't you look into AI, it gives you access to some awesome bulls.

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by wr

If you're leaving your bull out with the cows up until close to calving, that means you're going winter him out and it certainly can be done but you absolutely must bed very deep. Frostbite on testicles affects can cause serious problems ranging from low fertility to no fertility. Because of our climate, I'm deadly serious about having my bulls semen tested in the early spring, not shortly before they go out. I've never had one test bad but I've heard of people who have and last minute is not the best time to be hunting a bull. Since you're starting small, why don't you look into AI, it gives you access to some awesome bulls.

I HAD NO idea they could freeze them things. I bought a book that is supposed to tell you "everything you need to know about cattle'. But it so far hasn't told me anything. Sure didn't mention that.

I am so used to horses that just sleep standing up and don't really need bedding.

You semen test the bulls AFTER you own them? I had no clue that was something people did. I thought it was just what you did when they were young to check them and they didn't need it again. I can't even imagine how you get that done......

I keep reading on here that AI is a big hassle and a waste of time. But I would be open to that idea. I don't know anything about it, but I am sure my vet will.

Man.....I have lived on a cattle ranch for 3.5 years and I don't recall ever seeing much bedding for the bulls. But I guess there should have been bedding. Here I am so worried about hay for next fall... I never thought about straw. I have only bought a few straw bales before and that was for a couple foaling mares I picked up one time.

[wr]

AI is awesome and to be quite honest, with a small herd, it's far easier than keeping a bull. When they finish up doing what they're inteded to do, they have been know to go explore potential opportunities elsewhere.

In winter I like to bed my bulls way deeper than my cows need and rebed frequently, more frequently when we're getting a lot of snow. I had enough bulls and suitable facilities that I used to just have the vet out to semen test but you can haul your bulls into the vet as well. I think my vet charges $50/bull to test and well worth it in my opinion. A bull with a low viable sperm count can result in a very long drawn out calving and an infertile bull can cost you and entire breeding year.

I bet you didn't know that horns also freeze in our climate? When you see horned cattle with one or both horns dropped or bent at an odd angle, it's because they have frozen at the point of the hinky bend.

I don't think you see the wind that we do but over here, we can't raise livestock without wind slab fencing.

[kmorisett]

Something I thought of when you mentioned 4-wire fence - that's what I have, and it's great for my cows, but my calf can get out without any effort at all. There are many places where the bottom wire is 1-2 ft. off the ground, and she slips right under, without even slowing down. The bottom wire isn't set up for current either, only the top and third wires are hot. I also believe that if the bottom wire was closer to the ground, she would just go out between the wires (she's crafty). Just an FYI, because I know it took me by surprise when she ran right out!

Kim

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by wr

AI is awesome and to be quite honest, with a small herd, it's far easier than keeping a bull. When they finish up doing what they're inteded to do, they have been know to go explore potential opportunities elsewhere.

In winter I like to bed my bulls way deeper than my cows need and rebed frequently, more frequently when we're getting a lot of snow. I had enough bulls and suitable facilities that I used to just have the vet out to semen test but you can haul your bulls into the vet as well. I think my vet charges $50/bull to test and well worth it in my opinion. A bull with a low viable sperm count can result in a very long drawn out calving and an infertile bull can cost you and entire breeding year.

I bet you didn't know that horns also freeze in our climate? When you see horned cattle with one or both horns dropped or bent at an odd angle, it's because they have frozen at the point of the hinky bend.

I don't think you see the wind that we do but over here, we can't raise livestock without wind slab fencing.

Thank you!

I always thought that the horns at a funny angle was when they were not cut off straight. Well...I think that does happen sometimes. My old boss would cut the horns off with a saw (he was more than a tad nuts for many reasons) and often would leave the remaining parts at an odd angle. I saw many cows with horns growing right INTO her head. Just curved around a poked in. The boss wouldn't even care so we would bring her in and fix it for her.

But ya, horns that have never been cut can grow a weird angles. I never knew.

Our land is surrounded by bush and we have three thick long windbreak type tree lines spaced evenly out across 80 acres of it. But I WILL fix up something in the corrals for them so they can get into real shelter if they want. I am one of those types of people that constantly thinks what the SPCA would say if they stopped by. I probably provide way more shelter for my horses then they actually need...without locking them in.

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by kmorisett

Something I thought of when you mentioned 4-wire fence - that's what I have, and it's great for my cows, but my calf can get out without any effort at all. There are many places where the bottom wire is 1-2 ft. off the ground, and she slips right under, without even slowing down. The bottom wire isn't set up for current either, only the top and third wires are hot. I also believe that if the bottom wire was closer to the ground, she would just go out between the wires (she's crafty). Just an FYI, because I know it took me by surprise when she ran right out!

Kim

Oh ya. Calves will probably just scurry out. They can be as bad as sheep. My fence is barbed wire. Nothing is hot. But if the cows can't get out then the calves just come back (they really have no where to go). My ex husband is a rancher and he just had ONE wire electric for all his cross fences. Calves just went where ever they wanted, but as long as the cows stayed in it didn't matter. My fence is REALLY tight and well made. I am sure once the calves are weaned they wont be able to get out anymore. I can and will put up electric wire if I have problems.

I have seen cows being chased just walk though a tight 4 wire barbed wire fence without slowing down. My ex told me that any cow can get out of just about any fence. She just choses not to. I have no idea if it's true, but I was VERY surprised with the ease that a full size cow walked through that fence. Yet 99% of the time they all just stay in.

[Beef11]

I would think and figure out a way to get some cross fencing in place so that cattle and horses aren't always grazing the same pasture. Continuous grazing is an invitation to get weed problems among other things. The weaning problem is easily solved with a weaning ring you put in the calfs nose. When it has the ring in the cow won't let it suck. It greatly reduces the amount of stress on the cow and calf caused by traditional weaning.

Sounds like you will have a neat place.

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by Beef11

I would think and figure out a way to get some cross fencing in place so that cattle and horses aren't always grazing the same pasture. Continuous grazing is an invitation to get weed problems among other things. The weaning problem is easily solved with a weaning ring you put in the calfs nose. When it has the ring in the cow won't let it suck. It greatly reduces the amount of stress on the cow and calf caused by traditional weaning.

Sounds like you will have a neat place.

Oh wow! I totally forgot about that ring thing! I WILL use that. I saw it when it was first invented years ago on the Prairie Farm Report.

I really don't think over grazing will be that much of a problem with just a few animals on 160 acres. But if I see a major problem I will probably have to. Up until we bought it in the fall it was a pasture for 40 head of cattle for the summer. They were just loose on the whole thing and it seems fine.

Thank you! We DO have a neat place! I just love showing it off!

Here is our blog.

http://skullcreekranch.blogspot.com/

And here are pictures of it.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...6&l=90cf97e55c

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...6&l=4828724125

[Lazy J]

Take a couple of lessons from the commercial cattle industry and develop a plant to have a 45 to 60 day calving season. It will help you trememdously with managing your cos and calves plus it limits the time you will have to 'borrow' a bull.

Jim

[RosewoodfarmVA]

You would have far more grass and better utilization of said grass with crossfencing and rotational grazing. Are all 160 acres to be pasture/riding area? How would you cut your hay without being able to keep the animals off of the hayland? It seems to me to be best if you design the land with a few lanes, with pastures/hayfields off the sides, where you can rotate which pasture the animals are in, which pasture gets cut for hay, and still have the lane available for riding. Sure it wouldn't be the same as taking off full speed across a 160 acre field, but 160 acres of open pasture seems an open invitation to overgrazing, underutilization, etc. Be aware horses are notorious for spot grazing. They will have to be confined to a small area and rotated to force them to eat everything within that area before moving on, or else the pasture will have places eaten to the ground and other places head high with weeds and tall grass. This problem alone necessitates rotational grazing (and pasture crossfencing). Just my opinion, but you will get 4x the production on that 160 acres with a good system of crossfencing and lanes, and watering systems.

[Jackie]

Originally Posted by Lazy J

Take a couple of lessons from the commercial cattle industry and develop a plant to have a 45 to 60 day calving season. It will help you trememdously with managing your cos and calves plus it limits the time you will have to 'borrow' a bull.

Jim

Why so long? I am only going to have 10 cows at the most. Wouldn't they all calve at the same time?