Norman's Horns?

mycowLilly · #1 03/20/09, 10:22 AM

Yes, I have a "Norman" -- I didn't name him, but he was just too cute to change the name. He's about 5 months old now, Jersey - and the people we got him from didn't dehorn him. His horns are very small... shooting straight up so far. Can I remove them? What's the best thing to do? He's very tame, and I work with him every day. Lilly wasn't polled either, and now I've had to have weights on her horns because every so often she liks to mooove you out of her way. I don't want to be wrestling with him and his horns!

These are MY first two cows.... Lilly has done great the last year ... and has grown big and beautfiul -- she's healthy and so cute. We got Norman - unaltered, to eventually breed with her. He's about half as tall as she is now... when will he be big enough to do his thing? Right now they are together all the time... I plan to seperate him when he gets bigger. Is that necessary?

Norman's Horns? - Cattle

Allen W · #2 03/20/09, 12:58 PM

If you have a vet that deals with cattle I would have both of them dehorned. The old timers always said if a Jersey bull was dried of he was old enough to breed.

mycowLilly · #3 03/20/09, 01:08 PM

Unfortunately, I'm 200 miles from anything...we pretty much take care of everything ourselves.

Is there anything we can do?

TSYORK · #4 03/20/09, 01:15 PM

I've heard that banding them will work. I've never tried it, as we always burn ours off, but I have heard that it does work, the process is just much slower. This might be an option for you given you location and having to do everything yourselves.

mycowLilly · #5 03/20/09, 01:28 PM

I'm game to burn them off - just need to know what I need. Can I do Lilly's too? She's very tame... and with us, and few friends, I'm sure we can get it.

copperhead46 · #6 03/20/09, 01:57 PM

Nope, Lillys are too big, but you could probably use a de-horning iron on the little one. Do you have access to a farm and ranch store? You can buy the de-horning irons there or maybe on-line, Valley Vet or some place like that. It should come with instructions, but you basically just set it down over the horn and it kills the root of the horn.. You can cut Lillys horns off, but you'll have to get her into some kind of head gate, cuz she's not going to like it. Just cut them off at the base of her head, and put some blood stopper in the wound. Use a good heavy saw or a set of de-horners.
P.J.

mycowLilly · #7 03/20/09, 02:16 PM

Thanks PJ! Been thinking of getting her a sanchton (sp?) for when she's ready to milk ... so that I can get her used to it (way early) and get her feeding in it... is this the same as a head gate? Where do I find those?

copperhead46 · #8 03/20/09, 05:35 PM

If your stanchion is really heavy duty, it would work, but she's not going to like the horn cutting, at all, and with a stanchion, you can't get around to her head, because the feed trough would be in your way. Plus you'd get blood all in the trough !! A head gate is a contraption that traps the head and lets you do whatever you need to do to them. I use a set of nose pliers and tye their head to the side and they just can't do much about it. So you have any help? Lilly is getting big enough that you really are going to have your hands full de-horning her. You'll really have to have Norman secured well too, when you put the heat to his head. Without the right equipment, it's really difficult to do these kinds of procedures. Do you maybe have a neighbor that has chutes and head gates, or the local sale barn? People can get hurt trying to de-horn without the animal being properly secured.
I'm thinking that tsyork might be right about the banding.........be the easiest way, just takes longer. I think you just use the same bands that you band a bull calf with, don't know, I've never tried it.
P.J.

Karin L · #9 03/20/09, 07:45 PM

Copperhead, that got me thinking...if a stanchion was used for dehorning, not only would it be hard for MCL to do it because the feed trough's in the way or blood will get in the feed, the cow will associate the stanchion as a painful and will refuse to go into it again to be milked.

A headgate is what is needed, for sure!

copperhead46 · #10 03/21/09, 10:07 AM

Yeah, I think they are smarter that we give them credit for. I know my old Dexter is a real pain to get into the chute, she knows something bad is coming. She'll follow you anywhere with a feed bucket, till you head for the chute, then she's gone.
P.J.

r93000 · #11 03/21/09, 10:20 AM

If you decide to cut Lily's- I would have a cauterizing iron on hand and ready to use. Sometimes bloodstopper is not enough to stop the bleeding. A cauterizing iron will also seal up and help to reduce your risk of infection.

mycowLilly · #12 03/21/09, 10:41 PM

Thank you all! I think we'll try banding to see if that works! Thinking about it, I don't want to traumatize her where I want her to be comfy for milking, so I will avoid that process... I'm thinking tying her to a big handle on the barn... (hope she doesn't move that thing!) We found that she doesn't move much after you grab hold of her and hold on for a minute or two. We've been preparing her!

65284 · #13 03/22/09, 12:32 AM

I'm not fearmongering here, I saw what a Jersey bull can do to a human, very close up, and I haven't, and never will forget it.

"He's very tame, and I work with him every day." That's the worst possible thing you could be doing. Jersey bulls have a well deserved reputation for being extremely dangerous, and hand reared played with ones are the worst of the lot.

I have owned or worked with dairy cattle most of my life. I never pet or even touch one of my bulls. The old saying that "familiarity breeds contempt" is especially true with these animals. And few things exhibit this old truism more than a pet Jersey bull.

A lot of people that had spent their llifetime working with cattle have been mauled or killed by Jersey bulls, and they don't need horns to do it. The more they are "worked with" the more dangerous they become.

So called tame/gentle bulls can suddenly with no apparent cause instantly turn deadly savage, he could very possibly reward all of your work by killing you.

Unless you have a lot of experience you would be far better off "dehorning" both ends and and putting him in the freezer then taking your cow to a bull or having her bred by A.I.

Ronney · #14 03/22/09, 05:35 AM

Ok, I'm going to buck the trend here to some degree - but I like to do that

If Lilly belonged to me she would keep her horns and they would be the least of my problems. Of the 10 cows I now own, only three don't have horns and they give me far more trouble - all of them have had regrowth and have had to be dehorned again as the regrowth has curved down towards the eye in all cases. These are cows that had been dehorned by previous owners, my own are never dehorned. An ageing Jersey has a beautiful sweep of horn and the only thing she does with them is to use them to open the sliding door on the feed shed.

The Jersey bull is a different kettle of fish and unless you have had experience with bulls, I would strongly suggest you get rid of him. He's a sweetie now but in 15 months time he's going to be a bolshie animal full of testosterone with only one cow to service once a year. He's likely to be putting you over fences faster than you can fly. I've kept Jersey bulls and I didn't have a problem with them but my partner certainly did - he learnt to hurdle fences at 45 that he couldn't have got over 30 years earlier. The Jersey cow is probably the mildest of all cows, the bull is notoriously the worst. If you must keep a bull, find yourself a nice little Angus but rather than waste the grazing for a once a year service, look seriously at AI or leasing a bull for two months.

Cheers,
Ronnie

mycowLilly · #15 03/22/09, 10:03 AM

I had no idea! Thank you all for the information! Well then, I will look to find Norman a new home! Wow... thanks for all the information. I've never trusted Lilly... and always stay on alert with either of them... she's just so big, that I figure if nothing more - there could be an accident.

Karin L · #16 03/22/09, 02:22 PM

MyCowLilly, don't take that as you finding a new home for your little bull calf....if you castrate him now he won't be having those problems that the previous posters have cautioned you about. A steer is quite a bit less of a hassle to deal with than either a cow or a bull, and besides by the time he's 15 months he's ready for the freezer.

It's never too late to castrate him. Besides I think Lilly'd appreciate the company. And what's not to have your own beef you fed up and had slaughtered for you to enjoy?

How big is big in the case of Lilly? 900 lbs? That's not all that big....1500 lb beef cows are big. And for being a Jersey, she's probably a little more trustworthy to be around than some other types of beefers that I've been around over the years.

Just my two cents.

mycowLilly · #17 03/22/09, 07:06 PM

Thanks Karin... Norman is such a sweetie now - hard to imagine that he can be mean one day! DH and I are talking things over... I think we have a little bit of time to decide what to do. He's so little still!

Lilly is maybe 900 pounds. She could be close now. She's had another growth spurt and got about 3 inches taller nearly overnight! She'll be 2 years old this fall.

Cliff · #18 03/23/09, 12:15 PM

I'd castrate him now either way, sell or keep. Not much market for Jersey bulls because of their nastiness, most ppl use ai. Only person you might sell him to would be a person new to cows like yourself, then you're only passing along a dangerous problem.
I remember more than once as a kid sitting up in a tree for most of the day when dad's Jersey bull wanted to kill me, and he hadn't been petted or messed with like yours has. The more they're handled the more dangerous they are as adults, as others have said. They get a huge attitude, and have no respect for you, and no fear if they've been petted and handled.
I remember once my uncle was knocked down and stomped all over (different Jersey bull than the one who had it in for us kids btw) before the bull tried to spear him on the ground (not much dehorning in those days.) He missed my uncle's head on the first attempt, but if dad hadn't showed up and buried a pitchfork in the bull's butt, he would've killed my uncle.
Also, Jersey bulls often won't give you a sign. They'll be nice and docile till the day they decide to kill you.

Agree with the cow not being a problem with the horns intact. Jersey cows are gentle or at least tolerant when handled much. You've let her horns get too big for any kind of removal without a big amount of trauma anyway. I saw a cow dehorned once with a horn saw and an iron to burn the bleeding. It was pretty awful, arterial blood shooting out all over the place, then extensive burning needed to stop it. The cow seemed in shock after and never was really the same. I've never tried it but heard that banding is painful for them also, they supposedly try like heck to rub off the bands.

**Tiempo** · #19 03/23/09, 12:35 PM

I have a horse named Norman

copperhead46 · #20 03/23/09, 02:35 PM

My Jersey cow is getting her horns removed just as soon as I can get her in to the vet!!! She uses them very well, against the other cows and has already clocked me, swinging her head around to see what was going on. Don't be telling people that Jerseys are the gentlest things around and won't hurt you...........they will all hurt you if the situation is right, all cattle will. At least without horns, thats one less thing to worry about.
P.J.