Raw Milk Battle

[Cotton Picker]

This is an interesting read:

http://www.douglassreport.com/dailyd...20090223a.html

Are there any from PA that know more about this?

[Onthebit]

." The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture dropped the hammer on Nolt and closed his business after he declined to renew his permit to sell raw milk. "

Sounds like raw milk sales are legal with a permit. Why wouldn't he just renew it and keep on with business as usual?

[Ken Scharabok]

Rather a biased report. See this one:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...m_protest.html

Apparently Mr. Nolt intentionally did not renew his raw milk permit out of protest of even having to get a permit at all. He says a farmer ought to be able to sell anything they want from the farm without interference. He intentionally made himself a test case.

My reaction to this is that PA may well make a knee jerk reaction and ban even permitted raw milk sales.

And, my personal opinion, is that anyone selling raw milk ought to have to meet the same standardard as a Grade A dairy in the same state, including regular inspection and milk sampling.

[Dwayne Barry]

Originally Posted by Onthebit

." The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture dropped the hammer on Nolt and closed his business after he declined to renew his permit to sell raw milk. "

Sounds like raw milk sales are legal with a permit. Why wouldn't he just renew it and keep on with business as usual?

Agree not a raw milk problem, but a lack of permit problem.

[Onthebit]

He isn't selling to his neighbours now. He is selling to the public. Everyone there has to have a permit to sell whatever they are selling. (At least they do in Canada.) We can't sell raw milk at all here so I don't know what point he is trying to make except flaunt the law for the sake of flaunting it. Or maybe he thinks he is above the law? I think he has made a poor stance.

[Cotton Picker]

Thanks Ken,

I agree that sanitation and purity standards must be upheld in order to promote consumer safety. I also agree that Mr. Nolt set himself up for what happened by his flouting established laws. There are better ways to make a point.

Here is a link to an interesting site that promotes raw dairy products. IMHO Lots of good info:

http://realmilk.com/sitemap.html

[haypoint]

When this thing first hit the news, I recall that he was allowed to sell raw milk, but he insisted on selling milk products like yogurt, etc.
He had gotten warnings before and ignored them. They told him in August that he'd be arrested if he continued.

Two ways to view this. There are those that insist that anyone should be able to sell anything they want to anyone. Within this group are those that believe raw milk is wholesome because it looks good and they like the taste and haven't been sickened by it.

The other view is that the State Health Department, Department of Agriculture and the USDA are responsable to insure that all the food sold in this country is safe. Within this group are those that understand the real risks of raw milk and understand that pasturized milk has all the vitimins of raw milk, making the dangers not worth the risks.

It is a topic not worth discussion. No one is going to change camps on this topic.

[Ronney]

Originally Posted by haypoint

It is a topic not worth discussion. No one is going to change camps on this topic.

Although people are not going to change camps, it probably is worth discussion in terms of what is reasonable. If people prefer to drink raw milk that is their perogative and they should be able to do so. However, having said that, those selling raw milk should still have to meet sanitary guidlines in the same way as a commercially producing dairy farming sending it's milk off to a milk treatment plant. I don't think that is unreasonable and Mr Nolt is being an idiot with the only loser being himself.

The food laws have been coming in quietly over several decades and always couched in the interests of health and safety which have lead people to believe that they must be good. Now people are waking up to the fact that they are rapidly moving into a "Nanny" state, they have lost or are losing the right to think for themselves and their intelligence is being insulted.

Cheers,
Ronnie

[francismilker]

Originally Posted by Ronney

Although people are not going to change camps, it probably is worth discussion in terms of what is reasonable. If people prefer to drink raw milk that is their perogative and they should be able to do so. However, having said that, those selling raw milk should still have to meet sanitary guidlines in the same way as a commercially producing dairy farming sending it's milk off to a milk treatment plant. I don't think that is unreasonable and Mr Nolt is being an idiot with the only loser being himself.

The food laws have been coming in quietly over several decades and always couched in the interests of health and safety which have lead people to believe that they must be good. Now people are waking up to the fact that they are rapidly moving into a "Nanny" state, they have lost or are losing the right to think for themselves and their intelligence is being insulted.

Cheers,

Ronnie

I couldn't agree more with you Ronnie on the sanitation standards. I've been at some folks house who milk and I wouldn't drink it if they gave it too me. The'll sit the milk bucket down on the barn floor right next to a pile of chicken or cow manure and sometimes they don't wash their hands. While I'm a fan of raw milk and support the sale of it, I won't drink too many folk's milk besides my own until I'm comfortable with their sanitation practices.

[Onthebit]

This paper is an interesting read:
http://www.rawmilk.org/pdf/report-in...inal-06-07.pdf


Some Outbreaks Attributed to Bacterial Food-poisoning from PASTEURIZED MILK
1945 1,492 cases for the year in the U.S.A.
1945 1 outbreak, 300 cases in Phoenix, Arizona.
1945 Several outbreaks, 468 cases of gastroenteritis, 9 deaths, in Great Bend, Kansas.
1978 1 outbreak, 68 cases in Arizona.
1982 over 17,000 cases of yersinia enterocolitica in Memphis, Tenn.
1982 172 cases, with over 100 hospitalized from a three-Southern-state area.
1983 1 outbreak, 49 cases of listeriosis in Massachusetts.
1984 August, 1 outbreak S. typhimurium, approximately 200 cases, at one plant in Melrose
Park, IL.
1984 November, 1 outbreak S. typhimurium, at same plant in Melrose Park, IL.
1985 March, 1 outbreak, 16,284 confirmed cases, at same plant in Melrose Park, IL.
1985 197,000 cases of antimicrobial-resistant Salmonella infections from one dairy in
California.

1985 1,500+ cases, Salmonella culture confirmed, in Northern Illinois.
1993 2 outbreaks statewide, 28 cases Salmonella infection.
1994 3 outbreaks, 105 cases, E. Coli & Listeria in California.
1995 1 outbreak, 3 cases in California.
1996 2 outbreaks Campylobactor and Salmonella, 48 cases in California.
1997 2 outbreaks, 28 cases Salmonella in California.

[Ken Scharabok]

WARNING: If this thread goes into yet another raw milk vs pasteurized milk battle I will lock the thread. Keep the focus on the original thread.

[wstevenl]

Originally Posted by francismilker

While I'm a fan of raw milk and support the sale of it, I won't drink too many folk's milk besides my own until I'm comfortable with their sanitation practices.

I think that this is the number one thing. If we as customers, are comfortable with the practices of a farmer/neighbor, we should be able to buy from them. I do think that there should be more strict guidelines for the milk and dairy products sold in stores with no farmer to associate with them. We should be able to trust that store bought food is at least healthy past that we should be able to decide for ourselves what to buy.

[djuhnke]

Originally Posted by francismilker

I couldn't agree more with you Ronnie on the sanitation standards. I've been at some folks house who milk and I wouldn't drink it if they gave it too me. The'll sit the milk bucket down on the barn floor right next to a pile of chicken or cow manure and sometimes they don't wash their hands. While I'm a fan of raw milk and support the sale of it, I won't drink too many folk's milk besides my own until I'm comfortable with their sanitation practices.

I guess I see it as a buyer beware issue. The government already regulates the milk industry and said that "raw" milk is bad and only past. milk is sold in a majority of the US. If you have the same agency who deemed it "bad" regulating the "raw" side, I don't see a positive future. Why not let those who would sell raw milk off of the farm, sell it?

Just as we've been to stores or restaurants that are gross and unclean and you'd never eat at, why not the same with farms selling raw milk and leave them alone regulation wise? No one has stood up the the milk industry and now we have it so that we have to sneak our own animals milk production under the radar if we want it pure like they've drank it for 1000+ yrs.

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by wstevenl

I think that this is the number one thing. If we as customers, are comfortable with the practices of a farmer/neighbor, we should be able to buy from them. I do think that there should be more strict guidelines for the milk and dairy products sold in stores with no farmer to associate with them. We should be able to trust that store bought food is at least healthy past that we should be able to decide for ourselves what to buy.

Totally agree here. Big difference between hand milked well handled milk and big dairy bulk tank milk.
And should be an individual's choice on what they consume. After all, the govt allows tobacco and alcohol consumption at will, which cause more morbidity and mortality than has been caused by milk/food consumption in all of history.

[Quiet Guy]

Cotton Picker, Do a search for "Nolt/raw milk" and there are several posts there pertaining to this. In the earliest one someone explains the problem more fully. My preception was that a small farmer was making money and the St. gov couldn't stand it

[Onthebit]

I think the focus of the thread is that the man thinks he shouldn't follow ANY rules. I am all for legalizing raw milk sales and I am for my being able to sell anything I raise, processed right here on my farm. But then thats someone coming to my farm and agreeing to buy what I produce here.

It isn't the same thing as going to market and selling to people who don't know you from the store owner they were buying from before....

Everyone who sells needs a permit, and he should have got the permit renewed. If there was a problem with the renewal then why don't they mention that? Most of the news story's I have read don't really mention that fact. They basically say that he is being punished because he doesn't believe that he should have to follow any rules 'cause he is trying to make a living off his farm.

There has to be some rules to follow, I just don't think big corporations, marketing boards etc. should always benefit. As I see it; a corporation should get 1 person's vote!

[haypoint]

http://www.lancasterfarming.com/node/773

He's milking 50 cows, hardly a cottage industry.

People have reported getting sick from his milk and milk products.

Penn Dept of Agriculture is in favor of raw milk, just they require a license and I assume they do spot checks.

Penn law dictates what dairies must do. PDA enforces the law. Elected officials make the laws.

Will you support me if I ran a restaurant without license and inspections?
Will you support me if I drove a School bus without a CDL driver's license?
Will you support me if I run a Child Daycare without license and inspection?

Do you support Nolt because you believe all Mennonites are wholesome and by backing him you are holding on to a nostalgic view of bygone days?

Do you support Nolt because you hate the government and despise food standards, regulations and laws?

Do you support Nolt because you believe all raw milk is inherently better than pasteurized milk?

Does anyone know or care that Nolt was milking and handling milk with Grade B standards and equipment? The milk in the stores must be from a Grade A dairy that have many safeguards in place.

[sammyd]

Big difference between hand milked well handled milk and big dairy bulk tank milk.

Sure is...you never know what's gonna fall in the bucket while you're milking.
Sure you can strain the chunks out when you're done but what does that accomplish?
With a pipeline, once that milker is on the udder there is no chance of a clump of poop, a fly, stray hairs, the cows hoof, etc getting in the milk.

[Onthebit]

Originally Posted by haypoint

http://www.lancasterfarming.com/node/773

He's milking 50 cows, hardly a cottage industry.

People have reported getting sick from his milk and milk products.

Penn Dept of Agriculture is in favor of raw milk, just they require a license and I assume they do spot checks.

Penn law dictates what dairies must do. PDA enforces the law. Elected officials make the laws.

Will you support me if I ran a restaurant without license and inspections?
Will you support me if I drove a School bus without a CDL driver's license?
Will you support me if I run a Child Daycare without license and inspection?

Do you support Nolt because you believe all Mennonites are wholesome and by backing him you are holding on to a nostalgic view of bygone days?

Do you support Nolt because you hate the government and despise food standards, regulations and laws?

Do you support Nolt because you believe all raw milk is inherently better than pasteurized milk?

Does anyone know or care that Nolt was milking and handling milk with Grade B standards and equipment? The milk in the stores must be from a Grade A dairy that have many safeguards in place.

Right he isn't a cottage industry. Now my guess is he was in protest of the regulations in place for his cottage cheese and keifer? Still, he should have made his protest known instead of the out right refusing of a permit...supposidly costing nothing to renew,

[Lazy J]

Originally Posted by haypoint

http://www.lancasterfarming.com/node/773

He's milking 50 cows, hardly a cottage industry.

People have reported getting sick from his milk and milk products.

Penn Dept of Agriculture is in favor of raw milk, just they require a license and I assume they do spot checks.

Penn law dictates what dairies must do. PDA enforces the law. Elected officials make the laws.

Will you support me if I ran a restaurant without license and inspections?
Will you support me if I drove a School bus without a CDL driver's license?
Will you support me if I run a Child Daycare without license and inspection?

Do you support Nolt because you believe all Mennonites are wholesome and by backing him you are holding on to a nostalgic view of bygone days?

Do you support Nolt because you hate the government and despise food standards, regulations and laws?

Do you support Nolt because you believe all raw milk is inherently better than pasteurized milk?

Does anyone know or care that Nolt was milking and handling milk with Grade B standards and equipment? The milk in the stores must be from a Grade A dairy that have many safeguards in place.

Haypoint:

I love your post. It should make all think about their position.

Jim