What to plant for winter grazing? Please help a newbie

[Homeschoolmom]

We just bought a 46 acre farm. There were/are tobacco farmers renting the back 40 and have about 15 acres of tobacco that they are about done with. Part of the deal is when they finish the tobacco they plant either wheat or tall Rye grass on the 15 acres. They asked us today what our preference is. Any suggestions? We are in NC and would like to have animals grazing through the winter if that is even possible. We currently have Jersey cows, horses and goats but the cows are my biggest concern as far as nutrition due to milking. Also they are running late this year with the tobacco and probably wont plant until next week or the week after. Is it to late for any of these to even grow? Can you tell we are new to this . Our old farm was just 12 acres and we just fenced in the yard so didn't have options of what to plant lol. Next spring we will not be renting out the land but using it ourselves for hay and grazing so that will bring a whole new set of questions . Right now our biggest concern is getting through the winter. Also if there is something better to plant than one of these two we do have the option of mixing it with something else we would just have to pay the difference in seed cost if there was any and to be honest with remodeling our farm house money is very very tight. Thank you all so much for your help!

P.S. One of the farmers thought that since rye grass is a wide sharp blade that it may hurt the insides of a cow. Is this true? For sure don't want to hurt my cows.

Rebecca
Homeschooling, Homesteading, homebirthing Mama to 6 blessings with #7 due in Jan 09!

[genebo]

Rye grass is good forage for cows. It makes good hay, too. It is a little hard to dry and doesn't keep too well. After a few months as hay, it loses it's good taste and the cattle don't like it any more.

Wheat makes good forage and good hay as long as it's harvested at the right time. Once the seeds have begun to form, all the nutrition goes into the seed and the rest of the plant becomes straw. Very little nutritional value left.

A bonus to wheat is that it can grow roots as deep as 3 feet in search of water. Once it is grazed or cut for hay, it dies and the roots rot. This leaves many small siphon tubes in the ground to bring water to the surface. Next year, when the drough hits, your pastures will be greener than others who didn't grow wheat.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[Karin L]

Wheat or wheatgrass? If it's wheat, I wouldn't use it because of threat of nitrate toxicity when a sudden cold snap hits it. Wheat (I think) tends to be a bit too rich for cattle too, might not be great for horses either...goats'll eat anything, so I wouldn't worry 'bout them.

As for ryegrass, what kind are your options? Perennial/annual (italian) rye or the more winter hardier russian wild rye?

Wheat and the annual ryegrass will come back just so long as they're grazed at the right time, at the vegetative stage before they start fully heading out. The growth points on these grasses remain at ground level if grazed at the vegetative stage, but if grazed when they are heading out, the growth points which have moved up through the head of the grass moving up, can get grazed off and thus kill the plant.

Ryegrass leaves won't hurt a cow's stomach. They can ingest tougher plant matter like alfalfa stems and it don't hurt them at all. There are range cows up here in Alberta that eat real tough so-called "hard" grasses like Rough fescue, Altai Wild Rye, Russian Wild Rye, and Western Porcupine Grass, to name a few, that probably have tougher and sharper leaf points than the ryegrass you mention, and it sure don't affect them one bit. And those cattle that are out stockpile-grazing on range pastures are not eating the good stuff that you'll be feeding your animals, they'll be eating the tasteless stuff similar to genebo said, but still getting what they need through the deep snow. So yes that's a myth that ryegrass'll hurt a cows stomach just because of the sharp leaf points.

[agmantoo]

I live in NC also. Plant Marshall rye grass. I do rotational grazing and I plan to go through the Winter without feeding any hay.

Karin L, most people around here do not know the difference from cereal rye and rye grass.

Homeschoolmom, what part of the state do you live?

[Karin L]

So I guess from what you say, agman, that she's planning to use what we Albertan's call "annual" rye grass. Well that makes things a little easier...

The ryegrass you use (have to mention this again, sorry, lol) is a much softer grass than the harder, native ryegrasses up here.

But I still am sticking with what I said about grazing...

[agmantoo]

As soon as I determine where she resides in the state I may make an additional recommendation. The rye grass will phase out rapidly here as the temperatures rise in Spring. If she is in the western half of the state you know that I am going to encourage her
to plant fescue don't you?

[ksfarmer]

Originally Posted by Karin L

Wheat or wheatgrass? If it's wheat, I wouldn't use it because of threat of nitrate toxicity when a sudden cold snap hits it. Wheat (I think) tends to be a bit too rich for cattle too, might not be great for horses either...goats'll eat anything, so I wouldn't worry 'bout them.

Not sure about your part of the world, but, thousands of cattle graze on wheat in Kansas and Oklahoma.

[Homeschoolmom]

Thank you all so much! I am enjoying all the responses. I am not sure what type of rye grass they would plant but will be asking for sure to make sure they get the right one.

Agmantoo- We live about 1 hour north of Raleigh, NC. My hubby actually works in Raleigh. We are about 25 mile from the VA border.

Really appreciating all of the help

Rebecca
Homeschooling, Homesteading ,homebirthing mama to 6 blessings with #7 due in Jan 09

[agmantoo]

Rebecca,
Open my other post here on the cattle forum, Misc. pics at photobucket , and take a look at some of my pastures. You folks are welcome to visit if you would like. I am about 3 hours away near I-40 and I-77.

[genebo]

Rebecca,

You should go visit Freedom Farm, in Louisburg, NC. It can't be far from you. Contact them ahead of time by emailing

freedomdexters at aol.com

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[KSALguy]

Originally Posted by Karin L

Wheat or wheatgrass? If it's wheat, I wouldn't use it because of threat of nitrate toxicity when a sudden cold snap hits it. Wheat (I think) tends to be a bit too rich for cattle too, might not be great for horses either...goats'll eat anything, so I wouldn't worry 'bout them.

As for ryegrass, what kind are your options? Perennial/annual (italian) rye or the more winter hardier russian wild rye?

Wheat and the annual ryegrass will come back just so long as they're grazed at the right time, at the vegetative stage before they start fully heading out. The growth points on these grasses remain at ground level if grazed at the vegetative stage, but if grazed when they are heading out, the growth points which have moved up through the head of the grass moving up, can get grazed off and thus kill the plant.

Ryegrass leaves won't hurt a cow's stomach. They can ingest tougher plant matter like alfalfa stems and it don't hurt them at all. There are range cows up here in Alberta that eat real tough so-called "hard" grasses like Rough fescue, Altai Wild Rye, Russian Wild Rye, and Western Porcupine Grass, to name a few, that probably have tougher and sharper leaf points than the ryegrass you mention, and it sure don't affect them one bit. And those cattle that are out stockpile-grazing on range pastures are not eating the good stuff that you'll be feeding your animals, they'll be eating the tasteless stuff similar to genebo said, but still getting what they need through the deep snow. So yes that's a myth that ryegrass'll hurt a cows stomach just because of the sharp leaf points.

every winter the wheat crop is grazed in kansas, there will be nice rich green wheat fields with a light dusting of snow and dozens or more black, red or what ever color of cattle grazeing it, some fields get grazed quite short before the farmer pulls the herd and lets the wheat mature into harvestable grain in the spring/summer, that way they get double use out of the land and crop, triple if you consider that the wheat gets grazed, harvested, and then fed back to other cattle at feedlots

[Greg H.]

You might want to get hold of a book called "Fertility Pastures and Cover Crops" originaly printed in the mid 50's and reprintef in the mid late 70's, it recomends a mix of kale ( and using electric fencing to control the amount that cattle can get to every few days ), and open silage ( that provides the protean that kale doesn't supply ).

The Kale is cold hardy and frost tolerant, and as long as tempatures are just warm enough will put on some fresh growth all winter long.

[Karin L]

Originally Posted by ksfarmer

Not sure about your part of the world, but, thousands of cattle graze on wheat in Kansas and Oklahoma.

so, maybe never mind what I said then about that.

I couldn't find any info on grazing wheat except in aftermath grazing, and found that it was the lowest in digestible energy in Mcal/kg compared to other cereals like barley and oats and the other grass/hay residues, and the poorest crop to use in aftermath grazing.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departm...ve=true&Click=
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departm...sf/all/for1324

HOWEVER, in grazing wheat, they DO say to watch out for nitrate toxicity, acidosis, and grass tetany in grazing cereals, cereals like wheat, triticale, and rye:
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departm...f/all/fcd10574

So maybe I didn't mess up anywhere.

[ksfarmer]

Originally Posted by Karin L

so, maybe never mind what I said then about that.

I couldn't find any info on grazing wheat except in aftermath grazing, and found that it was the lowest in digestible energy in Mcal/kg compared to other cereals like barley and oats and the other grass/hay residues, and the poorest crop to use in aftermath grazing.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departm...ve=true&Click=
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departm...sf/all/for1324

HOWEVER, in grazing wheat, they DO say to watch out for nitrate toxicity, acidosis, and grass tetany in grazing cereals, cereals like wheat, triticale, and rye:
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$departm...f/all/fcd10574

So maybe I didn't mess up anywhere.

General grazing recommendations
The following should be done to avoid problems when grazing cereals, especially when the growth is very lush:
Avoid acidosis by providing a straw supply or access to grass stands in adjacent pastures to supplement the low fibre content in the graze.
Avoid high applications of nitrogen sources as high nitrate levels can cause problems on spring cereals. Frosts and drought usually increase nitrate levels. Know the lab quality of the forage feed being used. Sample and submit for feed analysis.
Use mineral supplementation to avoid potential for grass tetany.
Supplement grazing livestock with straw or hay to add fibre, reducing runny manure problems.

[translplant]

Hi there
We are smack dab in tobacco country here so I'm guessing those fields are completely bare except for the stubs left after cutting? This is a unique opportunity for you to plant a mix of grass, not just a monoculture. We plant a 3-blend annual rye this time of year plus drill fescue. I also always seed a variety of clover in fall and late spring - just walking through the pasture with a hand cranked seeder. (good exercise!)

Tobacco is a very, very high "input" crop so there will be residual fertilizer, pesticide and herbicides in that soil. I wouldn't bother with any fertilizer this year for sure.

We planted cereal rye in one bare paddock last year and while the cows loved it, it did not regrow or thrive as well as the annual which, by the way, is a totally different species of grass.

I would seriously look at what Agmantoo here is recommending. He really has the pastures to prove it. And, the Coads at Freedom Farm are great NC people to talk to as well. You cannot go wrong reaching out to both of them.

[Homeschoolmom]

Thank you all so much for your help! My hubby is reading through your post and will be talking to the farmers that will be planting this week. He is also currently reading a book called Science in Agriculture that will help as well with our long term goals. Anyone ever read it? I never dreamed there would be so much to learn. I always thought grass was grass. LOL

Agmantoo- You pastures are beautiful! We would love to come visit sometime when we get our house finished. Thanks for the invite.

Thanks again to all for your help!

Rebecca
Homeschooling, Homesteading, Homebirthing mama to 6 blessings with #7 due in Jan 09

[RosewoodfarmVA]

I would recommend planting perennial species rather than annuals. If I judge the situation correctly, you are ending a lease by a local tobacco farmer and his obligation is to sow a cover crop. I also assume you don't have adequate equipment to sow anything yourselves. Why sow an annual which will only give you a year's grazing? Why not plant it in perennial grasses? The most suitable to this area are Fescue and red clover for nitrogen fixation. Orchardgrass does almost as good, but has longer establishment time. That would be my recommendation....from a farmer who lives not more than an hour from you!

www.trulythoughtprovoking.blogspot.com

[agmantoo]

Homeschoolmom,
Your window of opportunity is fast running out. You need to plant ASAP