Which one do I steer?

[Tiffin]

I have two bull calfs born in May and July. I need to choose between them as to which one is going to be steered. Should I choose the one that is rather aloof or the one that is friendly? I can see advantages and disadvantages to both. The aloof one could be an advantage if he stays this way he would just stand back away from me. But this could make him hard to handle as far as getting him say into a stall for whatever reason. The friendly one could become too aggressive as he gets bigger. Right now he comes right over to me sniffing and licking my boots. I can pet him. I'm thinking this could be a bad trait in the long run. Anyone have an opinion? I should make up my mind pretty soon as I need to have the vet here anyway to dehorn the one born in July. The May bull was born polled.

[wwubben]

Friendly bulls can be very dangerous as you have stated.I would steer the tame one.

[ozark_jewels]

Are you planning on using the intact one for breeding? If so, you need to choose the better quality bull for breeding purposes. Do you know their background??
For a herdsire you want one from a background of good milking ability, good udder quality, good conformation, etc. Always pick bulls to better the calves they produce.
Steer the lesser quality one.
If you know nothing about their background, and there is no noticable difference in them physically, I would steer the friendly one.

[genebo]

Temperament has too long been neglected in selecting breeding cattle. Aloof is not a bad trait, but any aggression is.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by genebo

Temperament has too long been neglected in selecting breeding cattle.

Very true. That is a selection reason I forgot to mention. Temperment is a *very* inheritable trait.

[cowkeeper]

Tiffin, I think you are talking about Dexters. Are the calves both long-leg? First check the scrotul sac. Even though one is older, you should still be able to gauge how they compare; even baby bulls can be very different in the "family jewels" department! Look for nice generous even testicles and scrotum and four (no extras) well placed teats. Do they have good toplines and straight legs? Good body depth? Nice round ears with no notches? Which calf has the better dam, in body conformation and udder attachment/teats and temperament? Is one dam more milky or beefy that the other (according to your preference)?
Is the standoffish calf wild, or just a wee bit shy? A little socialization may help; bring him in with his mother for a few days, and just do normal chores around them, without petting.
If the calf seems too bold, establish your position with your livestock cane! You must be boss cow. I like a calf that is calm, but will step away from me if I put my hand out. Do not pet, especially do not scratch or play with their heads.

[Tiffin]

Thank you everyone for your input. Very nice things to look at. Yes, cowkeeper, I am talking about Dexters which I should have mentioned in original post. I will do a close observation before deciding. Both are long legged. The dams are very different so it will be tough. One is probably the largest Dexter you will ever see: 50" tall at the hips, broad, weighing 900 lbs by a tape measure. She doesn't have a great personality but I get along with her. Her calf is the aloof one. The other dam is a short legged stocky weighing around 700 lbs with what I would say saggy udders (probably an issue) after three calves. I'm still leaning toward the friendly one going to beef. Just this morning he followed me all over the barn anticipating a little bit of grain. Kind of intimidating to think he could be doing this as a bull at 900 lbs. We will have to keep a close watch on him even after we steer him; perhap will have to send him very early. He is so darn cute, lol.

[G. Seddon]

Why not post pictures of the two (from the side) so we can see?

[Tiffin]

Here are pictures taken this morning. Best I could do with them moving around.

Kilkenny born in May

Poddle born in July

[ozark mike]

you answered your own question...do you want horns or not? polled bulls will only throw polled calves no matter if the cow has horns or not

[haypoint]

Both bulls seem nice. Unless you have many unrelated cows, keeping a bull is a waste. You can get better quality calves using artificial insemination. Bulls can be dangerous, too. Castrate both.

[cowkeeper]

It's hard to tell as the second pic of from an add angle, but Kilkenny looks like a better animal.
Ozark Mike, a polled that is heterozygous for the trait, can also throw horned calves..ck

[ozark mike]

Cowkeeper, I don't want to hijack this thread, so pm me..after having four years of having that beat into me in school {FFA} and about 25 years of dairy and grain farming I need to have that explained...if we used a bull that was not polled you could almost count on horns, a polled bull, always polled calves...same was true with goats..mike

[Tiffin]

Kilkenny is heterozygous polled which means he has half the genes so his chances of a polled calf is 50/50 unless he is bred with a polled cow. Homozygous polled is 100% regardless of who he is bred with. And actually I used the same AI semen from a heterozygous polled bull and got only this 1 out of 4 bred cows. So in this case it was only 25%. I do like the shape of his head because of it. I know quite a few Dexter breeders who keep a bull very successfully but I will be very cautious anyway. This will be our first bull. He will be with his mom until she weans him off which I have heard helps their disposition. Thank you everyone for your input.

[cowkeeper]

Tiffin, I'm curious as to why you would keep a bull rather than continue to use AI? One cow has a bad udder, and the other is hugely over breed standard in height. You have had success with AI and you could continue to use AI and choose bulls to improve your herd, rather than using one of these bull calves..ck

[G. Seddon]

I agree with cowkeeper. If you've been successful with AI, why not continue? Keeping a breeding bull is certainly possible, but it can be a management issue. Bulls like to mess with things, including fences.

I think it's difficult to evaluate bull calves until they're a bit older. Much easier to have them castrated and sell at weaning (6 months) as steers for people who want to finish their own beef. This gets them off of your payroll.

I'd be worried about keeping it with his mother until she decides to wean it; by that time, it's likely he'd have bred her and every other cow in the pasture as well.

If you are concerned about the one who follows you for grain, you might try putting his grain down before you bring him in to eat.

[Tiffin]

I have a tendency to believe all waht you people are saying but now I have to deal with DH who thinks this is way over dramatized. And of course now that I have been open and honest about these two and their moms I might as well beef them all and get on with the remaining ones which I won't discuss, lol.

[cowkeeper]

Hi Tiffin, I don't get it. You asked for and received advice. It sounds as if you feel the discussion has somehow been damaging? For potential sales? Not all bull calves, even nice looking ones, should be kept as herd sires. They can only pass on the genes they have inherited, so if the size of your Dexters and udder attachment of daughters is not terribly important, by all means keep a bull calf. (The AI sire will have probably helped in the height department, the udder genetics would be an unknown until you have daughters in milk. If they have thrown to the dams' udder type, you will have lost several years of improvement) You have used AI with some success and seem worried about keeping a bull. With AI you have so much choice, and could buy quite a few straws of semen from great bulls, for the cost of wintering a bull, especially if you have to buy all your feed. JMHO of course, sorry if it offended in some way.

[Tiffin]

No, cowkeeper, I'm not offended just feel almost like I've been betrayed by breeders and sellers. I'm new at this cow/Dexter thing and didn't realize all the ins and outs of size, udder, etc. It's my own fault for not researching more. I liked the size and temperament of Dexters and went from there, not any further. So, for me to go on breeding with an oversized Dexter and a cow with not so good udders makes me feel like I would be doing a disservice to the Dexter breed. I love the animals but don't know if I can correct the issues with these two cows offspring, or try better breeding with the remaining three that I have. Again, I thank you and everyone for your input and I am in no way offended just disappointed.

[cowkeeper]

Hi Tiffin, We all have to start somewhere. These two have caught successfully to AI and both have had nice calves and are raising them. No doubt they have a lot of good old breeding to contribute. The challenge is, to preserve the genetics and choose bulls that will improve their weaknesses. You will soon have daughters and then grand-daughters and you will see the results of your mating choices. This is the excitement and satisfaction of cattle breeding.
I think it is your first Dexter calf crop? I had bulls the first year too (both went into the freezer - yum, the best beef you will ever eat), but the time goes fast and you will get those heifers . A generation or two, using the right sires, can make a vast improvement.