Question about overwintering cows

nathan104 · #1 08/15/08, 10:29 PM

Im trying to educate myself on the winter needs for my two calves. I have an angus cross and a brangus calf. They are both approx 6 months old. They are on about 4 acres of pasture right now and being fed a couple of pounds of a 12% sweet feed every morning.

From what Ive read, seems that with only two calves, Id be best served staying away from large round bales and should go with smaller bales. We have a hay bunk feeder which holds a single small square bale. We've bought a few of the small bales from the feed store in the last few months but the feed hay they offer doesnt seem to have very much green to it at all.

If we did do just the small bales, how many can we figure on needing through the winter? Would a single bale last 2-3 days for my two calves or would I end up putting a new bale on the feeder every day?

Does it make a difference on when I buy the hay? Should I buy now and find a place to store it or would I be alright buying a little bit at a time in the winter? Right now I could probably store around 20 square bales but if more is needed to be bought now and stored, I could probably get it done.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance for the help.

Ernie · #2 08/15/08, 10:47 PM

Depends on the type of hay and the state of the cow. If you have a pregnant or milking cow then it's going to require a lot more hay (and of better quality).

There's grass hay and then there's legume hay. Alfalfa hay is some of the best you can buy and is extremely rich. You can actually kill a cow with bloat by overfeeding alfalfa. Straight grass hay (unless it's a first cutting) is probably the poorest quality hay, nutritionally speaking so it will require more of it.

Not knowing what kind of hay you have, I would put out one bale for both calves per day. That's 1 half-bale per day, per calf. If they eat all of it and act like they want more then they should get more. If they don't eat all of it in one sitting then you can cut back. It's not an exact science but more or a dial-it-up-or-down kind of thing. Also watch their weight. A calf is certainly going to lose some weight in the winter, but they shouldn't become too thin too fast. You shouldn't see them looking too haggard until about late February.

20 bales is not going to do you for 2 calves. Even an east Texas winter (and I used to live in Freestone County there) can be harsh and there won't be any forage for them from about November to March. Angus are not known for being hardy foragers. They're known for converting corn to beef well. You need to plan for AT LEAST 1 bale per day for 4 months. That's 30 X 4 = 120 bales. (I'm talking here about the square bales, which are really all I'm used to dealing with.)

Trust me. You want to have enough hay going into the winter. If you run out in December you are going to pay through the nose for any hay you can find, assuming you CAN find some. The price will double or triple by January. You want enough hay stockpiled until you can begin grazing again and then about 1 month beyond that for filler. (In the spring I put livestock on a little hay in the morning before I let them out to graze. Helps prevent bloat from the wet spring grass and clover if they fill their bellies a little with some dry stuff.)

If you're going to keep cattle, or any other herbivorous livestock, you'd best become a hay expert. Learn to buy the best at the cheapest price, and how to tell the junk from the good stuff. There are plenty of people who will sell you junk at premium prices if they think they can get away with it.

nathan104 · #3 08/15/08, 11:14 PM

Thanks for the reply. Learning about hay is what Im trying to do right now. If I need to store 120 bales, Ill get it done. Makes we wonder if it wouldnt be better to buy the larger bales though. Im guessing 120 square bales are equivalent to about 10 round bales? I know we'd have to use a pitchfork or something to tear hay off to feed but I wonder if it would still be easier that way. I can picture the size of 10 rounds, but have no clue as to the space 120 squares would take up. Ill have to figure that out. From the advertisements I see in the paper, square bales of coastal are around $4/bale and round bales are around $45. So, Im looking at about $500 for 120 square bales or just a bit less if I go the round bale route. Have to admit I wasnt expecting it to be that expensive taking them through the winter.

Maybe we should take in our little angus early for slaughter at 8-9 months of age. Not sure what size she'd be if it would be worth it. Probably not. But then, Id only have one to feed through winter.

Ernie · #4 08/15/08, 11:28 PM

You want to consider pounds per when you're comparing round bales to square bales. I can feel the weight of a square bale whereas I can't "feel" the weight of a giant round one. The density in the bale comes from the hay equipment and not everyone does it the same. You need to know how many pounds.

Plus, those round bales get pretty nasty sitting out all winter unless you have them under a tarp. I wouldn't get round bales unless I had a tractor and a fork to carry them around with. (Which I don't, and so I don't.)

Taking livestock through the winter is somewhat problematic. The 18 months they tell you to get a steer to slaughtering size is part of the reason why I think the cattle business is so unprofitable to small homesteaders. Half your cost is in overwintering. I'm a much bigger fan of Gene Logsden's method ... buy them young in the spring and butcher them when winter comes. Take whatever weight you get then because it's almost all free. No overwintering costs for pasture-fed beef.

Madsaw · #5 08/15/08, 11:40 PM

A few things to think about. Just a thought on a average size of rounds are about 1000 lbs. A good heavy grass bale could be 50 lbs. So thats roughly 20 squares to 1 round ROUGHLY!! They never seem to figure out real close in actual time.
Dry bales of alfalfa with not bloat a cow. It when its green and freash its a hazzard.
try to find some big squares of hay. Its easier to remove slabs to feed then ripping a round apart.
Bob

nathan104 · #6 08/16/08, 01:11 AM

We got a late start on these calves and didnt get them until mid May. Come November, they will only be about 8 months old. If I had it to do over, Id have got them earlier and got two that were just a bit older so slaughtering them after just one summer would work out. We do have a tractor but its a 23hp Ford and I wouldnt be able to move 1000 lb round bales with it I wouldnt think. I really wouldnt have to move them around though, just rip off enough for daily feeding. I havent seen any ads for the large squares but Ill ask around. If I do go the large bale route, I wouldnt put a whole bale out for them to go bad, Id tear off enough for a day or two at a time. Still may end up doing the large amount of small square bales just because it would make the daily feeding easier as long as I could figure out storage. I need to get the measurements of a single bale so I can figure up what type of space would be needed for so many.

milkinpigs · #7 08/16/08, 01:24 AM

Most hay in your area is gonna be coastal bermuda,if you can find some sudan that would be better.there is plenty of hay available, just buy it as you need it.If you can't find any, get a copy of the "Country World" newspaper out of Sulphur Springs.

arabian knight · #8 08/16/08, 08:41 AM

Well as far as round bales goes as too how much they weigh. It depends on just what part of the country you are in cause where I am those "round" bales are around 1400 Pounds a piece in some in Iowa weigh as much as 1800 a piece~!!!
And around here BIG Square bales the ones that are 8 foot by 4 foot approx. are at around 1000 Pounds~! And most "pop up" bales are 45 to 55 pounds.
I know with my miniature horse I go through a bale a week THAT is easy to figure how many bales to make it through the winter I get 50 so with 2 growing calves through the winter ya 120 sounds about right.

agmantoo · #9 08/16/08, 09:16 AM

Nathan, your animals will need approximately 3% of their body weight in feed per day. Determine how many days you will need hay and allowing for the calves to be growing and the amount of feed increasing accordingly. Can you plant the pasture to rye grass (Marshall variety if it is adaptable to your area) and rotate the calves through that to offset the cost of the purchased hay? Are you using rotational grazing on the 4 acres?

Ernie · #10 08/16/08, 09:34 AM

Goats are a lot easier to carry through the winter. Aside from needing less hay, you can supplement their food supply with vegetable table scraps. If only the market for goat meat was better ...

matt_man · #11 08/16/08, 11:07 AM

Here is Southern Missouri last winter we fed 2 full grown milking dairy cows, 2 six to eight month old bull calves, and a young calf with 150 small squares and two 1000lb round bales. There was much less waste with the round bales because it was better quality. We keep them stored inside and peel the outer layers to feed a bit at a time. Big squares are nice because they flake off just like a small square. The big rounds can be hard to get started but then we would just roll it back and forth and pick up the layer that was down on the ground when we rolled it. It wasn't all that much work. I think we could feed them all winter on 10 rounds and not be in danger of running short.

Rachel

ksfarmer · #12 08/16/08, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

Depends on the type of hay and the state of the cow.

. Also watch their weight. A calf is certainly going to lose some weight in the winter, but they shouldn't become too thin too fast. You shouldn't see them looking too haggard until about late February.

Why on earth would you let a calf you are feeding to butcher lose any weight? With proper feeding they should continue to gain weight. It may take more or higher protein feed to compensate for cold weather, but , no reason at all to lose any weight if they are healthy.

Ernie · #13 08/16/08, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksfarmer

Why on earth would you let a calf you are feeding to butcher lose any weight? With proper feeding they should continue to gain weight. It may take more or higher protein feed to compensate for cold weather, but , no reason at all to lose any weight if they are healthy.

You wouldn't, unless it's just more cost effective to let them put it back on through grazing in the spring. I won't carry slaughtering steers through the winter. It's too expensive. I can't justify paying for grain to get the 7-to-1 conversion of grain-to-live-weight ratio. There's not enough of a market for organic beef in my region. A forty dollar steer I bought in March and raised on pasture until mid-October, however, yields less meat but at a much higher profit.

I agree with you, KSFarmer, if you're trying to eke out a living on selling beef then every time the steer take a dump you just lost money. You can't afford to let him lose any weight at all. However I only take dairy and breeding livestock through the winters, so in my case it sometimes makes fiscal sense to let them burn into their fat reserves a little. (Unless they're pregnant or providing milk in the winter.)

From this thread, Nathan, are you beginning to get an idea of the complexities of this? Fun, ain't it?

nathan104 · #14 08/16/08, 06:53 PM

LOL, yeah, just a little. We are just doing this for food for our table and to learn. I do think that from now on, we will do what you mentioned by buying in late feb or early march and raising til late fall. We can do probably 4 calves, sell three in fall and slaughter one for us. But, with these two, one we are defintly going to take through the winter. Not sure on the other one. It'll defintly be too small to slaughter but may just sell it. Or, we will just keep them both and know better next time. This is all about learning how to do this. We've never had cows before and these are our first two. Im not really concerned with making profit or anything with these, that will come later. But, we also dont want to just blow a whole bunch of money either.

agmantoo · #15 08/16/08, 07:42 PM

Nathan,
Did you see my questions above?

nathan104 · #16 08/16/08, 08:43 PM

Agmantoo- I am semi rotational I guess, lol. My pasture is set up around a large long pond. I have a one acre pasture that I kept them in for the first two months. A few weeks ago I opened the gate in the crossfence letting them have access to the whole shebang. I dont have any other cross fencing, so just the two areas, one being one acre and the other being approx 3 acres. My pastures are full of bahia. Very thick stuff that grows 4 ft tall. Some weeds but not a whole lot. The cows dont seem to make a dent in it. I had them on the one acre for two months and still had to mow it down some. I shred it and three weeks later its two to three foot high. Which is why I think Ill try 5 calves next spring. Maybe they can keep it eaten down some. These two dont make a dent. As for the rye grass, Ill have to look into it. Would I disk it up and broadcast the seed? Would the bahia come back the next spring? Ill check it out.