An extinct breed?

[hoggie]

Hi - I don't usually post in here - some of you may know me from the other forums, but I haven't been around anywhere much for a couple of months.

But I have a bit of a strange question. A friend and I are very interested in a breed of cow that is now extinct. We're fairly sure we know how the breed originated which was a cross between a Guernsey and a Jersey. We are considering trying to re-create the breed. Does anyone have ANY advice whatsoever about a project of this kind? Obviously that is a very wide ranging question but I am really looking for anything that anyone might have to offer on the subject.

One precise question that I have is how much difference would it make which half was the bull and which half was the cow?

The main reason that the breed died out was financial necessity on the part of the farmers. The breed was in such high demand that they sold all their best stock abroad, and were left breeding from inferior quality animals. Eventually the breed suffered and they had to breed too much Guernsey blood into them and obviously lost the breed as a result.

Any ideas anyone?

TIA

hoggie

[francismilker]

Seems like to me get you could get a Jersey bull and kick him in with a bunch of pretty little guernsey heifers. Before long, he'd make sure your breed was recreated! (or, he'd die trying!)

[hoggie]

Thanks - One of the things I am trying to find out whether certain characteristics come down the male line and others down female lines. The breed description was of a cow with the head of a Jersey, with a high butter content like the Jerseys but a high yield to go with it. It had the nature of the Jersey, but more the size of the Guernsey. The Guernsey cows, while a lot more tractable than a lot of cattle, still don't have the nature of the Jerseys. So I am wondering whether it would be better to have Jersey cows. But would a Guernsey bull be too big for a Jersey cow?

hoggie

[francismilker]

My understanding of the Jersey breed is that they have changed significantly over the early ones that were brought to North America. The ones being milked today are a lot heavier producers (incidentally contributing to their milk fever prone tendancies post calving). The jersey of today is also larger than that of yesterday. The breed you're looking to create may exist in today's jersey. They still have an extremely low birthweight and have the head and high butterfat to go with it.

[cowkeeper]

Hoggie, are you speaking about the Alderney cow? Here is a link:
www.alderneysociety.org/aldcow.html

[ladycat]

Hoggie, here is a downloadable book about Jersey, Alderney, and Guernsey cows (or you can browse the flipbook online).

http://www.archive.org/details/jerseyalderneygu00haza

HTH

[hoggie]

Wow - thank you cowkeeper and ladycat. Yes it is that Alderney I am talking about. I didn't mention it by name before as I know they were always imported into America as Guernseys for political reasons here in the islands, so I assumed that they wouldn't be known about in the US. I had a problem downloading that book ladycat, but will try again later. The article is helpful with a couple of bits I didn't know. It really is a question of picking up snippets of information here and there, as everything in Alderney was lost during WWII. I have managed to find quite a few photos though.

francismilker - yes, the Jersey in Jersey is still the original cow. I am not sure about yields, but it is still the little cow it started out as.

I believe that the original Guernsey may also have been smaller, as ours here are huge now even compared to when I was a kid. But then the original Guernsey in the US may have been Alderneys (or some may have been anyway LOL)

The irony of it is that I don't even know if I will be allowed to try this experiment as the same political conditions that meant the the Alderneys were exported as Guernseys and contributed to the cows demise, still exist in the islands today. Namely that you can only keep a Guernsey cow in Guernsey and a Jersey cow in Jersey. 21st century Alderney being technically part of Guernsey we are now only allowed to keep Guernsey cows, so I have no idea if I would be allowed to keep some Jerseys to try to re-create out own island cows

Anyway - thanks for the input

hoggie

[hoggie]

Oh wow - isn't the internet an amazing place. I was searching for the Alderney and found this site with masses of pictures of them. More pictures than I think I have ever seen of them For anyone that may be interested here's th elink

http://www.cipostcard.co.nz/cattle.htm

I think my favourite one (which I have seen before) is the 3rd one down on the right showing two little boys holding a heifer on the breakwater - presumably waiting to ship her off. I can't help wonder what they were thinking - whether she was a favourite pet that they were upset at losing - or whether they were pragmatic farmer's sons who just saw that she had to be sold.

hoggie

[savinggrace]

Those are great! Thanks for sharing!

I like the confirmation of photo 54 the best.

They look to me like Guernsey's but on shorter legs...I don't understand the jersey dished face standard I just see guernsey heads can anyone suggest a photo which shows an example of what they are talking about?

Interesting neat project please keep us updated

[genebo]

A note about breeds: In order to be a separate breed, it needs to be discernably distinct from other breeds and be capable of reproducing itself. It may take many generations of selective line breeding to establish a breed, Then the breed needs a rocognizing body to establist the standards which define that breed.

Cross-breeding a Jersy to a Guernsey certainly won't get you a new breed. It'll produce an F1 hybrid. That offspring might be reasonably predictable, but the offspring resulting from breeding two of these hybrids can vary tremendously.

In beef circles this type of crossbreeding results in a "grade" animal.

My dog's sire was an F1 hybrid, 1/2 Chow and 1/2 Labrador Retriever. His dam was also an F1 hybrid, 1/2 Beagle and 1/2 Australian Cattle Dog. My dog is a mutt. She's one of 6 puppies. No two looked alike. I love her, but bless her heart, she's not a new breed of dog.

It's the same with cattle. Breeding two dissimilar breeds together doesn't produce a new breed.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[hoggie]

saving grace - I had thought the same thing. I'm not sure what the answer is - it is possible that the "Jersey face" was a romanticism of people remembering the Alderneys? Or maybe photos of the Jerseys andGuernseys of the day might give the answers? Maybe the differences were less marked than they are now? I will keep hunting for pictures to see if I can find any clues. I am also struck by just how small they were - in one photo there is a man holding a bull and he looks tiny (the bull that is not the man LOL)

genebo - I am sorry if I over simplified the issue. Of course I am well aware that it will not be a simple question of crossing a Guernsey and a Jersey. We are looking at a very long term project involving a number of animals, and a very long time commitment. It may not even be possible - both the Jersey and the Guernsey have changed a lot in the last century - who knows if it is even possible to find animals suitable to breed from for the project. We are going to have to look for "old-fashioned" animals which will probably take quite a bit of doing in the first place. We can't even be exactly sure of how the cross breeding started. It is going to be a question of picking apart all the resources we can find for every hint of evidence and then building on that information.

It is not something we will undertake lightly - believe me but thanks for the advice anyway

hoggie

[haypoint]

I'm no expert in genetics. I've raised Percheron horses for over 30 years. I always figured it was very important to buy or use the best stallion I could afford because he contributes half the genetics to my foal crop.
Not so.
The offspring get over 70% of their DNA from the mare.
If the same is true with cattle, and I think it is, then the combination you use to develop this breed will depend of which breed is the sire and which is the dam.

Often times the desired characteristics can be obtained within the breed, without bringing in another breed. If you want a cow that is larger than a Jersey, breed towards that. If you want a Guernsey with richer milk, breed in that direction.

There are many variables as much of the genetic characteristics are not dominant. With the same sire and dam you may get two offspring exactly alike or one year you may get one that gets more Jersey looks and the next may be more Guerensey. Once you get exactly what you want, you'd have to line breed for a few generations to insure consistency.

Are your children interested in carrying on your project?

[ladycat]

Hoggie, were you able to get that ebook downloaded?

I've been reading it with great interest. It goes into a lot of history of the Channel Islands and the native dairy breeds as well as the early dairy history in the USA.

Here's one passage about the Alderneys I found particularly fascinating.

'' The early importations of Jersey cattle into this
country are most difficult to trace. The animals were
then called Alderneys, and the same name was given
to Guernsey cattle, of which a goodly number were
brought over, and they seem to have been interbred
somewhat indiscriminately.
** The following is a copy of a paper kindly furnished
by Col. Craig Biddle, of Philadelphia:
"
' The earliest record of an Alderney cow in Pennsylvania,
that I am aware of, will be found in Vol. IV.,
page 155, of the "Memoirs of the Philadelphia Society
for Promotion of Agriculture." It is as follows :
** ' " I have upon my farm on the Delaware a cow of
the Alderney breed, imported a short time since by
Mr. Wurts. She has been fed in the usual way with
potatoes, and during the last week the milk from her
was kept separate, and yielded eight pounds of butter.
The cow is a small animal, and is supported widi less
food than our ordinary stock.
u f a gy communicating this fact to the Society, it will
oblige, etc.,
"*''Jan, II, 181 7. Richard Morris.
" ' " P. S.—The cow is three years old.
" * " To Roberts Vaux, Sec. of the Phila. Society for
Promoting Agriculture."
'* * In a note on the same page, it is stated " that the
cow above referred to is now in the possession of
another member of the Agricultural Society ; and after
a fair trial made with her during last summer (1817),
the superior richness of her milk, when compared with
that of other cows, has been fully tested. She gave 9
J
pounds of extremely rich, highly-colored butter per
week."
'' * Another mention of the same cow will be found in
the fifth volume of the same work, page 47, viz.
:
"
' " Germantown, Oct, 20, 1818.
" ' " With this you will receive a pound of butter made
from the Alderney cow imported in 1815 by Maurice
and William Wurts, and now in my possession. She
calved on the 13th of last month, and is now in fine
condition, running on excellent pasture of orchard grass
and white clover, and gives on an average about 14
quarts of milk per day. From this quantity, during the
week ending the 7th instant, we obtained 10 quarts of
cream which produced 8 lbs. 2 oz. of butter, and the
week succeeding 102 quarts, which gave 81 lbs. of the
quality of the sample sent. You will perceive it is of
so rich a yellow that it might be suspected that some
foreign coloring matter had been added to it; but you
may rely on it this is not the case. I may add that one
of the good properties of this valuable breed of cattle is
the ease with which the cream is churned, requiring but
a few minutes to convert it into butter. When a proper
opportunity occurs, I shall endeavor to ascertain the
quantity and quality of butter to be obtained per week
from the Kerry cow, imported this summer from Ireland,
and the Brittany cow from France, both of which
breeds I have pure.
" * *' I remain, respectfully,
" ' " Reuben Haines.
" * " Richard Peters, Esq."

[genebo]

Excellent research, Ladycat. Bravo!

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[hoggie]

Thanks ladycat - I couldn't get it to download as a PDF but I have been able to read it online. Funnnily enough it turned out to be a book that I have been looking at (and wishing for) on abebooks - the cheapest version they have there is $185 gulp. But now I can read it for free But I am only reading it slowly as I find reading on screen gives me a headache after a while. But it is a great find - thank you. I will have to check my dates on the above quote - I have a feeling that it dates from the times when all the Channel Island cattle were shipped as Alderneys but I would have to double check everything.

haypoint - I never knew that about the DNA - I too thought that the sire was half the herd! If so it will be even more important to figure out how the cross came about. From what I have read, my first guess is that it was Jersey cows crossed to a Guernsey bull and then probably their offspring crossed back to another Guernsey bull. My logic for this is that they had Guernseys in Alderney anyway, and the historians think that they imported Jerseys as the population increased. As they already had a steady supply of bulls on the island, I can't see them bothering to import a Jersey bull, I think it would have been cows they imported. I am also guessing that at least the first crop of bull calves would have been eaten, leading me to the first cross back to a Guernsey bull.

I think that the other problem I have is that the Alderney almost certainly came about by accident - so even if all the records hadn't been lost in the war - I don't think there would be any records of those first crosses. It might be worth my while searching in Guernsey for references - after all they were still exporting them to Guernsey. So I have to try to think like a 19th century farmer. What would he have bred for? What would he have selected for? presumably udder conformation? general conformation? certainly disposition as that is a huge part of the CI? Was the colouring and head an accident that only got included when they had to come up with a breed standard?

savinggrace - the best picture I can come up with at the moment is here

http://www.cipostcard.co.nz/jersey/genviews.htm

near the bottom on the left are two photos of Jerseys. The lower one has the classic Jersey head, but the upper one doesn't look anything like a Jersey. I am going to have to keep digging on this one LOL

Also on the original page here

http://www.cipostcard.co.nz/cattle.htm

four from the bottom on the right there is a picture entitled Unknown - Alderney Cattle. This is a very famous picture as it is blown up huge on the wall in one of the restaurants here - it has been there on the wall as long as I can remember and the photo was taken in front of the restaurant LOL. However the cow in the front of the picture is the one that all the old boys point to and say "she's a proper Alderney" In fact this may be a late photo as a couple of them have said that she's the only true Alderney in the picture. Now she does have a Jersey head. More digging LOL

Thanks again everyone for the input

hoggie

[hoggie]

OH - just had another thought - it was possible that they deliberately kept the Guernsey colouring so as to be able to export them through Guernsey. Guernsey has had restrictions about importing other breeds of cattle for a VERY long time, and at that time Jerseys wouldn't have been allowed into Guernsey (as they aren't now) so it may be that they bred for the colouring as well to meet with import/export restrictions?

hoggie

[IMContrary]

You can find all kinds of cool articles about the various Channel Island breeds on this site, lots of stuff about Alderneys. http://www.jersey.syd-fyn.dk/