Average Number of Homesteading Acres?

[francismilker]

I was wondering on average how many acres people use to hobby farm or homestead on? I realize for some of us, (myself included) we homestead because we enjoy it. While others do it as a sole source of income. Realizing this, I'm convinced that those who do it for a living must be more conscience of cost.
On the idea of acreage I ask the question about how many you use simply because of a statement made to me by an older retired farmer friend of mine who never worked a job in town. He made his living solely off the farm his entire life. He said to me one day, "people don't utilize the land the way they used to. Fifty years ago, eighty acres could support a family of six."

I realize that fifty years ago it could be done easier simply due to there wasn't as many things to spend money on, ie. (cable tv, electricity, atv, high speed internet,phone,etc.) People lived a lot simpler lives back then and got by with a lot less.

HOW MANY ACRES WOULD IT TAKE YOU TO TOTALLY SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY WITH TODAY'S ECONOMY IN MIND?

[topside1]

Francis here is my best guess, 120 acres. At least 40 of that would be used as hay fields. I'd run a calf/cow operation and be a local source of hay. Of course this is only a dream, but it's a nice dream....Even with 120 acres I think I'd be hard pressed financally and would have to cut corners and avoid many of todays luxuries.

[agmantoo]

Location is everything! In NC I could live off the income from a cow/calf operation that is 200 acres in size. There are agriculture areas in the USA where it would take 1600 acres to match this. PS... the 1600 acres would probably cost less in those arid acres than the 200 in zone 7.

[DaleK]

What agmantoo said, and also it depends what you do with it. It isn't so much the number of acres, it's a combination of acres and amount of labour and value that makes it work. There are places in North America where a cow and calf need 100 acres to live on.

We're providing a full living for 3 "families" (my 65ish parents, my wife and I and 3.9 kids, and one Amish employee, wife and 8 kids) on 1100-1200 acres (roughly, unless I can pick up a bit more by spring) of crops, 85 milk cows, and 250 acres of woodlot.

[DaleK]

What your friend forgot to mention is that margins have shrunk a lot since the old days. When Grandpa started farming (late 20s) 80% of what he got paid for his crops, milk and animals was profit. When Dad started in 1964 it was down to 50-55%. Now if we can average 5-7% we're doing well.

[donsgal]

Originally Posted by francismilker

I was wondering on average how many acres people use to hobby farm or homestead on? I realize for some of us, (myself included) we homestead because we enjoy it. While others do it as a sole source of income. Realizing this, I'm convinced that those who do it for a living must be more conscience of cost.
On the idea of acreage I ask the question about how many you use simply because of a statement made to me by an older retired farmer friend of mine who never worked a job in town. He made his living solely off the farm his entire life. He said to me one day, "people don't utilize the land the way they used to. Fifty years ago, eighty acres could support a family of six."

I realize that fifty years ago it could be done easier simply due to there wasn't as many things to spend money on, ie. (cable tv, electricity, atv, high speed internet,phone,etc.) People lived a lot simpler lives back then and got by with a lot less.

HOW MANY ACRES WOULD IT TAKE YOU TO TOTALLY SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY WITH TODAY'S ECONOMY IN MIND?

We have 26 acres but only two or three are useable. I would say that we probably could get by on that amount if we did not have cows. Personally, I could do without cows and just raise chickens, rabbits and sheep for meat, but I don't know if I could train dh to drink sheep's milk in place of cows'. Otherwise, between a large garden and growing hay and feed for chickens/rabbits/sheep I think we would do ok.

donsgal

[myersfarm]

with my dairy heifer operation...I could make money on 40 acres...if I broke downand feed milk replacer I could make money on 4.........but I have 440 acres make my sole money from the farm.....just sold my angus herd so I should have grass every were come spring..........tjm

[ksfarmer]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Location is everything! In NC I could live off the income from a cow/calf operation that is 200 acres in size. There are agriculture areas in the USA where it would take 1600 acres to match this. PS... the 1600 acres would probably cost less in those arid acres than the 200 in zone 7.

What he said!

[ebook]

This is an interesting topic and I enjoyed reading all the responses. Hopefully others will chime in as well, because I think this is on the mind of many people!

In fact the question really got me thinking so I decided to do a post about it on my blog today ... a sort of long and rambling post! If you want to check it out or throw out other ideas feel free to check it out at:

The Beginning Farmer

[myersfarm]

Ok some people have said 120 acres you could make a living in the right area not wanting to throw a wrech in the gears but lets say you have that 120 acres....30 acres for hay field sure in any area you would need more but they leaves you 90 acres with 1 cow calf pair to the acre never heard of the cow pair to acre that small but that give you 90 pairs...with those 90 cows you will only have 80 to 85 calves to sell at weaning but say 90 easy to figure...selling at 600 to 700 lbs I also looked up the price they are bring in NC and that is 648 x the $1.08 that is $700 ......700 x 90 = $63000 that seems like alot you lose $1000 in comission and hauling even if you haul...$62000 .........$1000 just in salt $1500 in mineral thats $59500....$1000 just in baler twine.. $7000 in fertilzier thats 300 pounds ac at $350 a ton now what will that price be....down to $51500 taxes no matter were it will be $3000 down to $48500 fuel will be at least $1500 down to $47000 insurance is another $1000 $46000 Ok that sound good...IF you made $46000 I could live on that BUT I also left off a lot of things you still will have to buy every year

look back and change one pair to just 2 acres remember you have to raise that calf to 650 lbs so it will eat almost as much as a cow and that cut everything in half can you live on $23,000 here in missouri we use 4 acres to the cow but I have run cow calf on 3 real easy

when you lose those 10 calfs that everybody does were will you be

if you buy that fertilizer at $500 to $700 ton what will be

if you took all that money that you would have invested in the land cows and equipment and put in bank drawing 3% how much would you have....$250,000 just in land $100,000 in cows $150.000 in equipment thats $500,000 making just 3% its $15,000 and thats doing nothing....

.why I got out of the big beef herd I had 120 angus cows and put everyting in a computer the $1.00 bag of staples and the $1000 bag of mineral...I was a store manager so I know how to pinch pennies but I could never squeeze the nickel into a dime most years with keeping track of everything I MADE $50 a calf after everything the best years before $600 fertilizer and $3.30 fuel

if you buy stuff out of your pocket a dallor here and a dallor there then sell your calves you thing you made money when you might just break even with all that work

tjm

[myersfarm]

here is a link for Tenn they say $300 to maintain a cow calf pair but avg sell is 450 pounds at 85 cents pound is $383 with the 100 sale on calfs to cows this farm had a 89% calf sell so they made $39.03 per cow
on 44 cows they made $1718.00

key words to maintain a cow not maintain a FARM like fencing and repairs


look at this link when it show up it looks blank but just scroll down and you will see the results fo there test
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=7&gl=us

[agmantoo]

myersfarm, I can see that you put a lot of thought into your response above and you are accurate to most typical traditional producers. I am not a traditional producer and my numbers and methods differ. I set no acreage aside for hay. I can cut hay from the surplus grass in my pastures but I do not. I sell calves at around 550 lbs. and I sell year around as I run bulls with the cattle and calve throughout the year. This way I get an average of the calf price for the year, not the high and not the low. Commissions and hauling are slightly above your figures. I buy only the cheap mineralized loose salt and my cost there are significantly less than stated. I spend more for fertilizer than stated. I have no baler twine expense since I stockpile the winter feed in the pasture. My fuel costs are very low as tractor use is for brush hogging only the pastures twice per year. I use to spread manure but without chemicals the dung beetles are thriving and doing that chore for free. My fence repair budget is only a few hundred dollars a year maximum. I use recycled highway type metal posts so they last indefinitely on the perimeter fence. I am now addressing the high cost of fertilizer. I will be using more legumes and I am going to change the size of the cows downward to where I will have the same number of head per acre but have less pounds of momma cows to maintain. I may trade off some fuel use and start planting some short term grazing forage for specific periods of the year to help hold the herd headcount up with less fertilizer. I look at the cattle for a return on the cattle investment. The acreage is viewed as a 401K type investment and it is appreciating on its own separately. I have no hired labor, I do my own repairs and I am a conservative person. My goal is to be the low cost producer with the products leaving my farm. I feel that I can survive whatever the industry thrusts at me and still be standing. I like what I do and I plan on doing it as long as my health permits. My position remains that one can make a decent living, as I stated in my initial post on the subject, on 200 acres in zone 7.

[myersfarm]

agmantoo....just wondering what do you think is a decent living on 200 acres of land a year with a beef herd....tjm

[DaleK]

Agmantoo I see a lot of logic in your approach. Being able to afford to own the land independently and be able to treat it solely as a separate investment instead of as a cost of production for the cattle enterprise makes a HUGE difference in the equation.

[Teacupliz]

I have a small dairy farm- my cows pay to feed all my other critters. I have 18 cows and 22 acres. I make hay on 10 then pasture after 1st cutting- We use 30acres of a nieghbor to make grass hay- then I buy the rest of my hay and all my grain- I still do okay. Lots of owrk but I feed everyone and still have a little money to spend on my human kids- Liz

[francismilker]

I'd like to reiterate the original question:

HOW MANY ACRES WOULD IT TAKE YOU TO TOTALLY SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY WITH TODAY'S ECONOMY IN MIND?

It's going to be different with everyone at every location. I've liked seeing the above posts based upon geographic location and different approaches to farming. Keep the opinions coming!

[highlands]

I can provide for our family of six on five acres. I want at least 10 acres and 30 acres is better. We have more than that...

We use about 10 acres for farming. Most, virtually all, of our farming income comes from raising pastured pigs using intensive rotational grazing methods. We also raise most of our own food in the form of fruit, vegetables, eggs, chicken, duck and lamb. This supports our family, pays the mortgage, provides our food, etc.

Part of the trick in making that work is we have very low inputs. We don't have much equipment, no barns, we don't clip fields, till or mow, the animals spread the manure - I don't shovel ----. My wife jokes we're the "No Shovel ---- Farm". We've got better things to do with our time.

We also don't buy commercial feed. We use pasture, winter hay (which we do buy from a near by farmer) and excess dairy to provide a complete and balanced diet for the pigs. Not buying feed keeps our costs down so we're not losing $5 per hundred weight like the big commercial hog "farms" who make up for it in volume. Ironically, the non-grained / non-commercial feed pork that we produce gets a higher price than grain fed pork.

Add another 10 acres for expansion of our farming to bring it up to 20 acres. That allows for rotations and resting of the land more effectively.

Add another 10 acres for woods to provide our firewood to heat our home. That's sustainable. We don't use much. We could probably do it on a small fraction of that but 10 is a nice number.

That is how much I would want at minimum - about 30 acres. I could make do with just 10 acres. More for elbow room is very nice.

What we have is another story because we bought our land a long time ago. We have about another 1,000 acres for forestry. Forestry takes a lot of land. It's a long term crop. That includes our sugar bush, about 50 acres(?) or so. Forestry and sugaring don't produce much income per acre compared with our pastured pigs but it is diversity. It also soaks up a lot of carbon which makes up for the likes of Al Gore jetting around the world, burning petroleum and preaching about Global Warming.

We have about 70 more acres that are simply habitat for wild animals, marsh lands, etc. This is 'unproductive' in the business sense but very enjoyable land.

All this is based on our location which is in the mountains of northern Vermont. In some other areas you would need more, in some less. We have a short growing season, poor soil, steep hills but plenty of water, sunshine and rocks. Each area has its pluses and minuses.

We bought our land back in the 1980's and I bought as much as I could direct from the previous owner saving money by not having a real estate agent taking their 10% tithe. The mortgage is almost finished. Today we wouldn't be able to afford it. Land prices have skyrocketed too much. This is our savings, our retirement, our investment, our insurance, our land, our home.

We have been providing our income from our land for years so this isn't just theory. However, I didn't buy the land with money from farming. Our initial capital came from another business I started which I had started off the back of my computer consulting which I bootstrapped. The land has paid for itself since then.

Lastly, live frugally. It is much easier to live on little land if you don't need a lot of money. Keeping the need for income down keeps down the percent that goes to Uncle in taxes which further reduces the need for income. A pleasant cycle.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

[SimplerTimez]

Thanks for the valid question, and all of the responses so far. Since this is what we are aiming for, it is an eye full to see what those who do it consider the requirements.

Very helpful to those of us working it out on paper first. I appreciate it.

[THETOOLMAN]

I am amazed that y'all can make a go of it on such small acerage. I also am verry impressed. I live on the old home place I have the land to use as I will. But farming 15 or 20 acres & living on it? sounds WAY to hard. what if you have no rain? a late frost? do y'all eat wild game? what about the what iffs??
Just wondering