Milking Shorthorn for herd bull thoughts.

francismilker · #1 01/12/08, 07:58 PM

I was wondering what you guys think about (or have experience with) using a milking shorthorn bull for future breeding purposes on my jersey cows. I've used a jersey for the last two years and have had nothing but typical behavior problems with the two of them. I bought six MS bull calves this year to raise on my nurse cows and a couple of them are growing off quite well. They are as beefy as any beef shorthorn I've ever seen. I'm considering using one of them starting next fall.

Questions are this: Are there typically any high birthweight problems with MS bulls?

Do MS bulls have any of the same tempermant problems you would typically see with a jersey bull?

What about the production and butterfat if I get a heifer calf and choose to keep her? I feel like the production will slightly raise while the butterfat will slightly lower.

Will the heifer calves have any market value at a dairy sale?

Thanks guys..........

Up North · #2 01/12/08, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francismilker

Questions are this: Are there typically any high birthweight problems with MS bulls?*Not typical,but possible

Do MS bulls have any of the same tempermant problems you would typically see with a jersey bull? *Less dangerous as a rule, but a bull is a bull is a bull.

What about the production and butterfat if I get a heifer calf and choose to keep her? I feel like the production will slightly raise while the butterfat will slightly lower.* The differences will not be appreciable for your purposes.

Will the heifer calves have any market value at a dairy sale?*Yes, but they would have even more value if advertised in "Graze" publication classifieds, or "The stockman GrassFarmer".
We have been breeding some Ayrshires, Holstiens, and Jersey crossbreds to MS343 Kourt from SelectSires.

See asteriks

linn · #3 01/13/08, 12:42 PM

We used a milking shorthorn bull for years on our cows with no major problems in calving. The bulls are mild mannered, unlike Jerseys and other dairy breeds. The daughters milk very well with a lower percentage of butterfat than the Jersey or Guernsey. Milking shorthorns are also long-lived. We have had cows fifteen years old, still calving at regular intervals.
We started out with milking shorthorns from heifer and bull calves we bought from a dairy. That was thirty years ago. We have since changed breeds of herd sires several times; but many of our cows still carry some of the shorthorn strain. These are the cows that milk well and have a lot of mothering instinct. Hope this helps.

#4 01/13/08, 02:05 PM

The biggest reason that Dairy bulls are so dangerous, as compared to beef bulls is that they are raised by humans, not on the cow. When they get older, they see humans as competitors, and they also have no fear of humans. So what I would say in this regard, is that it woudld depend on how the bulls were raised. If they were raised on a cow (as you say yours are) then they will likely be less agressive. If they were raised by hand then they will likely be similar to your Jersey bulls.

Look up a post I made a while back. It was "Bottle Raised Male Animals" I believe.

matt_man · #5 01/13/08, 06:17 PM

I wish I knew the man's name but we were listening to a Wise Traditions seminar and a man from Oregon/Washington??? did a lecture on the "Cash Cow". He raised Jersey cows but always bred to a Milking shorthorn bull. He did this not only for temperament but also because the calves were naturally polled. At least that is what I remember him saying. I have never seen one myself and will have to go do a google now.

Rachel

TulleyJohnMyers · #6 01/13/08, 06:23 PM

I have 2 milking shorthorn heifers and one cross with a jersey....that seem to be fatter and what I have looks like they will have good budders......tried to buy a shorthorn bull this year to cross with my jerseys and they were sold out.....tjm

DaleK · #7 01/13/08, 06:56 PM

I wouldn't hesitate to use an AI MS bull but looking at what's available even there, I'd have a heck of a time finding a GOOD MS bull to buy as a herd sire. Think I'd stick with AI for the MS and find a breed with a lot more to choose from to buy a good bull.

francismilker · #8 01/13/08, 08:15 PM

I appreciate all the input so far and welcome many more comments or advise you all are willing to share. Out of the six bull calves I have, as stated earlier, two of them are extremely beefy. If I hadn't picked them up from a MS dairy, I'd sware they were beef shorthorns. I noticed when I was at the dairy picking them up, over half of the cows in the holding pens were very beefy themselves. If they would'nt have had well pronounced udders and milk veins, they could've passed as beefers. I asked the dairywoman about it and she noted that in years past she had used a dual-registered bull on her herd one year. I'm thinking some of the beefy characteristics are cropping out. If I can get up to my desired goal of 12 nurse cows with some of these beefy looks coming out in my cows, I'd like to then start breeding with a black beef bull to make my bull calves more marketable. Not sure what the markets are like in your areas, but around here, if a 400 lb. feeder steer even hints of dairy characterisitcs it's price goes down dramatically.

It may appear I'm running a well pronounced "money-pit" operation on these milk cows, and I probably am. It's just that these milk cows are acting as Prozac-on-the-hoof! Since working on the dairy for five years as a kid I've wanted to make a go at dairying. I just can't make it work financially. Even though I do run a small beef herd on a piece of leased ground south of my house, they just don't cure the itch I have for animal care. That, in essence, is why I choose to have my miniature dairy routine and even mess with these nurse cows at all. They just seem to have their own individual personalities and make me feel good at the end of the day. (Not to mention the benefit of having fresh milk and a way of making sure I know where the kids are at 6pm and 6am!)
A couple of the cows I'm using now are two that I raised as bottle calves that are holstein/angus cross. They are solid black with good udders. I used a jersey bull on them as heifers and have used a Maine Anjou bull on them this year. The calves "should" be good beefy calves with all the milk they will recieve with only 1/4 dairy decent. I think if these cows were to throw a heifer calf, I'll try sending it to the pasture with my 40 brangus cows and see how they compare as beef cows.

While it may be very detramental to my beef herd, I've even toyed with the idea of using a partially bred MS bull on my brangus cows one year. Most of my cows are getting up to the age of 8 or so years old and it seems that with the bad choices on brangus and angus bulls I've went with over the last six years, I've "bred" the milk ability out of my herd. These cows come from good stock and are pretty fair milkers as beef cows go. I've just noticed over the past few years that the heifer calves I've kept as replacement cows aren't giving as much as their mother ever did. (Even on their second and third calves.)

Once again, thanks for all your thoughts and opinions and keep them coming.

evermoor · #9 01/13/08, 10:03 PM

One problem with this is the shorties color pattern generally will lower market value. Often Jersey shortys will have some brindling, on black cows you may get blue roans if the bull is white. One of my favorite all time cows was half jersey shorthorn she was light solid red with a great udder and decent test.

bantams · #10 01/13/08, 11:19 PM

"I wish I knew the man's name but we were listening to a Wise Traditions seminar and a man from Oregon/Washington??? did a lecture on the "Cash Cow". He raised Jersey cows but always bred to a Milking shorthorn bull."

That might be Roger Wechsler of Samish Bay Cheese in Bow, WA. He has a herd of 30 or so Jersey's and for the past few years he has been breeding to Milking Shorthorns. He keeps (or at least in the past he did) a MS bull on his property.
His main reason for crossing his cows was to produce hardier offspring that are not as prone to milk fever as pure Jerseys. Also, they raise the steers for beef, so it helps to have a beefier animal than pure Jersey.
I don't think horns were a factor in the crossbreeding - the herd sire had horns.

Here's their website and contact info if you want to email questions:
Samish Bay Cheese

Kelsey

Jennifer L. · #11 01/16/08, 06:41 PM

I use a MS bull on my Holsteins right now, and bred some heifers AI to MS this past year. The heifers were not that big at freshening but calved with no problems at all. Might have just been the individual bull, of course, but I'm inclined to think the calves tend to be smaller.

While I've had no problems with him, outside of tearing off every sliding door on the place, ^$%$#k, Mr. Smoothie comes through the parlour when he feels like it and doesn't seem to be bothered by much.

The only bull I've had quieter than him was the last Holstein bull I had that was pen raised with another 6-8 bulls his same age (on a large farm where they keep quite a few bulls all the time). Tiny was so quiet and well mannered it was a pleasure having him there.

Jennifer