Bottle Calf down

[midkiffsjoy]

I grew up on a 300 acre working cattle ranch in Bedias, Tx. Our momma cows raised their own calves and I can only remember ONCE us bottling a calf. But I knew my mom did it in collage, and DH and I only have 5 acres with dairy goats, so we dont have room for COWS, but I wanted to see if we could raise some bottle calves up and sell them as steers at auction.

Now earlier this year we lost a calf to a cold. She'd been rained on and having the sniffes and then just went down and refused to eat and died. I didnt know what to do. So I started building a solid hutch complete with door to lock them in when it's cold and couldnt stop myself from bidding on two calves when I saw they were going for 30 a piece. Thats not much here at all. So we've had em a month, theyre doing fine. They had been on goat milk and doing great, but we had to switch them to replacer when we let the goats dry off to breed them back. Four days ago one of them stopped finishing his bottles. They had gotten rained on and spent two nights in the cold (the cold was a surprise) He almost finished it so I didnt worry. I also noticed a little sneezing. Well in the last two days he's taken FOREVER to drink his bottles. DH thought he was chewing on his tounge instead of sucking on the nipple. This morning DH was giving him his bottle when he just fell over like a sheet of plywood. We drenched him his bottle and a cup of black coffee, and he perked up. I went ahead and wormed him and gave him a shot of antibiotics. I dont think he needed worming, but I wanted to be able to say I've tried everything. He's laying in the sun warming up right now. THe other one (who is FINE) is laying in the sun too. I went ahead and wormed and gave HIM a shot of antibiotics too since I heard him sneeze (though whether he's got a cold or is just sneezeing since the hay on the hutch floor is dusty, I dont know). They have both had yellow baby poo since we bought them, but I think the sick one may have scours.

Can anyone else think of anything else I can do??? He's aleart, and seems better, but since I lost one earler this year after getting rained on and falling down, I dont want to loose this one the same way.

Thanks!

[needstoknowmore]

does the sick one have poo all over it's hiney and back legs? If it has scours keeping it hydrated is the biggest concern. Other than the weather if this problem started when you switched from goats milk to replacer, I would guess it to be the replacer. What I would do, and I am no calf raising expert. Is switch the sick one to whole cows milk form the store, or go back to milking the goats, they don't need to be dried off to rebred, just done before they kid again. some animals just don't take well to replacers. And add some probios to it's milk. Did you switch them over slowly? or just a sudden change? Also check the poo for any signs of blood? Is it still the yellow? Are they nibbling any hay or grain? You've had them a month. How old are they? I know more questions than answers but it might help you get answers from those who know more than I do!!!

[topside1]

How about spending another $30 dollars and call in a Vet?

[farmergirl]

Sounds like it could be pneumonia. It comes on QUICK in the baby calves, especially when the weather charges drastically. You need to be sure that the antibiotics you're giving are good at rooting out chest bacteria, not all are. I would dose him with LA 200, make sure you give him enough for his weight, and feed him a couple raw eggs to help build his strength up. I wouldn't necessarily keep him boxed up. As long as it's warm and not windy outside, the movement of walking around should help him clear his lungs up if that's what ails him. From your description of how the other one died, I'm almost certain that one had pneumonia as well. It really is amazing how quickly they can turn downhill.

[midkiffsjoy]

Originally Posted by topside1

How about spending another $30 dollars and call in a Vet?

If YOU can find a vet for $30.00 let me know!!!!! *ROFL* HERE they are 100.00 and up per visit, and DH lost his job last week. Guess I could just butcher him, but I figured I'd use the forum for what it's meant for first....to ASK questions!!!!

*shrug* It's not just for bragging and *itching ya know.

[vicb66]

Even on a nice forum like this there is someone that can't keep a nasty thought to themselves.I think any opportunity you can find to ask others a question you should take it.I'm sure you will do fine with what ever decision you make.Best of luck helping your calf.

[midkiffsjoy]

It's really odd, he seems fine now. Thin, but up and moving around fine. They've been on replacer for about two and a half weeks. I have no way of knowing how old they are since I bought them at auction. I only know how long I've had them. They have access to hay and clean water. I thought it was really weird that he walked down to the tank to drink from it instead of the clean water in his hutch. Watching him walk around I remembered WHY I wormed him....he's SKINNY. Like he's got no roughage (which would make since if he's only drinking the milk I'm giving him and not eating his hay). To be honest, I dont know if he has or not. Living on a farm doesn't give a person lots of time to sit and watch one animal when them seem fine. This evening he took his bottle like a champ and drank it all down with gusto. The antibiotic I gave him was Liquamycin LA-200. It's what the vet prescribed earlier this year when mom's Nubian was in a horning accident. It's got directions for cattle and swine. I gave him 3cc since he's not 100 lbs. He doesnt have poo all over his butt. So maybe it's just baby poo and not scours yet. I didn't see any blood in it. I'm tryig to answer as many questions as I can. And add anything else I can think of.

When I lost the heifer earlier this year she was 3 months old and my neighbor (whose calves are all on their mommas) lost one too. The weather has been unlike anything we've had for the last 50 years. Very wet and mild all year.

So how DO you FORCE a calf to eat hay??? They are both very nice and THICK, just this one sick one looks like it needs roughage. I started the one on calf manna, but now I'm a little afraid to give the sick one any more changes. The change from milk to replacer WAS sudden (and I know better) but I didnt want to fight the buck. They get dangerous while in rut. I guess I'll know more when we feed them in the morning.

Thanks needstoknowmore. Neat name by the way. Dont we all need to know more? grin.

[midkiffsjoy]

Originally Posted by vicb66

Even on a nice forum like this there is someone that can't keep a nasty thought to themselves.I think any opportunity you can find to ask others a question you should take it.I'm sure you will do fine with what ever decision you make.Best of luck helping your calf.

He's already doing SO much better. It makes having lost Charlie (our black angus heifer) just that much worse. It had hit her SO fast, and I was afraid to drench her cause I've heard horror stories about drowing goats cause the tube went down the wrong hole (with tube feeding), I just kept trying and trying to give her a bottle. When the calf fell down this morning I figured he was gone too so it wouldnt hurt to try and he's seems much better. I'm actully shocked. But I'm gonna watch him and try. (cross fingers)

Thanks (I have REALLY nasty inlaws, so I've gotten over taking people's bs personal. It's not my fault they have issues. But thank you very much! grin.)

[Up North]

From the sounds of things I would agree with others that the calves probably were afflicted with pneumonia. Damp conditions coupled with large temperature variations between nighttime and afternoon can bring on pneumonia.
After treating with LA-200 a good next step is to feed them yogurt(a probiotic as needsto mentioned) as it provides food and replaces the good bacteria the antibiotic may have eliminated.
If they are skinny, I am wondering a couple things:
1.) Are you providing them with a good, large particle calf grain mix?
I won't say it will hurt the calf to eat hay, but getting them to eat grain good from 1-2 weeks age on is more important for good rumen development.
Bottle calves have small stomachs and internal organs. They simply cannot process enough hay through their system to provide very much nutrition until they have grown larger and have larger stomachs and digestive systems.
2.) Is the milk replacer a high quality product containing enough protien and fat? Some of the lower priced milk replacers may not provide enough nutrition.
3.) Are they getting enough milk replacer?
Some things you may consider...

[midkiffsjoy]

I'm AM giving them the amount of replacer the bag said to, at the times it said to. I gave it probotics this morning (I think I forgot to mention that. I just did everything I could think to do and it was in the vet box. I didnt nutradrench, but it wasnt in the box and I didnt think of it at the time) I dont have yogurt in the house, but I have kefer. Could I give him kefer in his replacer in the morning??? *raises eyebrows* The one that was sick this morning is the only one that looks skinny. The other one looks fine and they are both thick. Well muscled. But the one looks like it's missed meals. It HASNT, but it LOOKS it. The one that was sick always chews his tounge when he gets his bottle, like he's chewing his cud. Thats what makes me feel like he needs to eat some hay. I think thats why it didnt occure to me that me might be sick when he slowed down taking his bottle. He's always been slower than the other calf. Chewing on your tounge while you drink slows ya down! *sigh* I'll admit I had every intention of starting them on calf manna last week but got sidetracked by the sudden loss of income (after him working there 2 years and never even had ONE write up, it kinda blindsided us. His boss told everyone he was on vacation. Noone even KNEW he'd been fired!!!) I started the other one on feed this morning. I'm kinda afraid to try the sick one on feed now. I honestly dont think he has scours now, but I'm kinda afraid any new changes right now will give them to him.
To be honest, with all the "organic" "grassfed" stuff that gets thrown at me I'm amazed I gave him antibiotics. I have an "organic conservation farm" neighbor who SCREAMED at me for giving my goats feed on the stand and has been pressuring me for the calves to go from milk to graze with no feed. I dont even want to recount the screaming and parental questioning she did over my pasturizing my goat milk before I give it to my two small children. It makes me second guess everything I learned growing up, so I'm never sure what the right thing to do is anymore. But I just KNEW he was dying this morning so I just gave up and did EVERYTHING I could think. grin. I'll check the protein % on the replacer in the morning (or start milking again. That might just be better all around)

[Valmai]

Chewing on his tounge?? Have you checked inside his mouth? Could he have an abcess, or a twig or a loose tooth?

[midkiffsjoy]

Originally Posted by Valmai

Chewing on his tounge?? Have you checked inside his mouth? Could he have an abcess, or a twig or a loose tooth?

Thats a very good question!!! We assumed he was less than a week old when we got him so we figured at the time it was because he was a baby and just didnt know any better. Third day we had him the other calf had bottle nursing down pat and this one still chewed so we call him Stupid (we call the other one Flower because he naps in the flowers). I dont think it could be a twig, but he might have been kicked in the mouth at the auction barn (in fact I had to threaten to knock the block off the girl they had loading goats one Sat when she kicked the ever living ----- out of the dehorned nubian I bought my mother. She said a goat had horned her earlier so she was just kicking everything when she went into the pens now. *shake head* I wasn't surprised she got horned. Someone corners me and starts kicking me, I'd attack her too! To this day that poor goat is about as visious as ...well, as a day old calf. Sweet, calm, already stand trained. *mutter mutter*) I will definitly check that in the morning.

[Teacupliz]

I feed medicated grain the first 6 months- I feel my calves and goats grow so much better. first thing I like to do when they are off is give sulmet- as if they cocci- it scares the intestines and slows grown and slow the way the absorb nutrition thier whole life- I would check is he has straw or hay gobbed in the top of his mouth- I have both goats and calves do that- daily- We have also chopped up some hay and stuffed it int he calves mouths to get them going.
Probitoic is as good as yogurt.

A natural remidy for a bad stomach is baking soda or Nut meg.

Liz

[topside1]

Joy and others I wasn’t trying to be mean. She seemed like she needed some quick simple advice. Original thread started @ 1230pm, no responses till 400pm the details sounded complicated so I figured maybe a VET would be quick and helpful. If you review my post history you will find that I attempt in great detail to help fellow members of this forum. Thanks for your unnecessary comments. By the way a VET visit in my area to the farm is $30.00....how would anyone on this forum know the visit price in your area except you....$30.00 sounded like money well spent from were I'm sitting. Not trying to defend myself, just trying to explain...Hope the calf is back to 100% and enjoying the weekend....TJ

[luvrulz]

For the record TJ, your response made perfect sense to me too! We also have cow practioners here that come out to the farm for a jar of homemade blueberry preserves....it's all in where you live! And we love it here -

About the calf, please make sure you're mixing up the right amount of replacer powder with the right amt of liquid. I am a prolific baker and was reversed in my thinking when I was bottle feeding a lamb. I was using the liquid measurement vs. the dry weight measurement and it made a world of difference! Sonn as I got it straightened out, the lamb started improving immensely....

We're all in this to help each other - aren't we?????

[midkiffsjoy]

Grin. Well the little dork seems to be doing fine now. I checked his mouth. Eight bottom teeth, two really sharp ones way the heck back. Nothing else. Tounge looks normal. I honestly think he's chewing the nipple. He sucks some, but mostly chews the nipple. *shake head* I checked again, and I am feeding them right. It comes with this handy little measuring cup that makes it DH proof. This morning he was acting like he was stiff (muscle aches) but if I sleep INSIDE and MY muscles ache this time of year too, so I cant blame him for that. By this evening he was at the hay bale with the goats. I DID put kefer in his bottle this morning and evening and I'll try doing that. And I'm trying to get them to eat Calf Manna, though I'm having a time doing it. They just dont want feed. Crud.
What is sulmet? I've never heard of it before. Someone told me today that calf manna is just soy and whey protein. It's all I can do to not try sweet feed. I've never met an animal who wont scarf down sweet feed!!! Animal candy. Alfalfa pellets have a very high protein % and creates warmth in the animals gut to boot. Might be just the thing for calves during a cold snap. Just tossing out thoughts as they enter.

TJ- You are very lucky in your vet. Cherish him (or her). The vets here are crud, and cost quite a bit to find that out. The ONE that does house calls, charges out the waazoo, and she is NOT avalible for emergencies. You make an appointment like everyone else, and if the animal dies in the meantime, then it dies. Truth be told, it sickens me, and I count my lucky stars I grew up on a working cattle ranch and I grew up learning hoe to dehorn, give shots, casterate, pull calves, etc. The only thing I REALLY wish I knew that I dont is how to draw blood to send in to a lab. We tried to have our goats tested for CL, etc and the vet FLAT refused. Where does that leave us? *mutter* The difference between raising a bottle calf and a cow doing it is that cows milk is MUCH better than anything powdered, they tend on a whole to be so much healther. You rarely have calves die from colds and little stupid stuff. Even so, my neighbor lost a calf in his herd to cold the same time we lost our little bottle heifer earlier this year. We've had SO much rain. If you have 60 momma cows raising 60 calves, and you lose one or two, it's considered an acceptable loss. But when you only have two or three and you're trying to better your families position, every calf counts. There is no acceptable loss. If I could have afforded a vet, and I thought it would have done any good I would have tried. But as lack as they are around here, I only call in dire emergency (and then they ALWAYS say "put it down") *roll eyes*. I appoligize if my defensivenes was uncalled for, but I've seen many times on the forums where people need help and ask simple questions and theres always one person who venomously suggested a vet. Thats why you rarely see me ask for help. grin. I'm willing to help anyone I can, but darned if I'll ask!!!! grin.

THANKS to everyone who gave me ideas and things to check for. I'm not so naive as to think he's FINE, but he's got a fighting chance and I'm keeping a close eye on him. (And I'll know what to do if this ever happens with a calf again, and never again will I shrink from giving antibiotics or drenching. And I'm gonna find someone who will show me how to use a tube feeder so I can do it if that unhappy emergency situation ever comes up.)

Joy

[Up North]

Joy - The tube feeders designed for calves have a ball,or bulb, on the dispensing end to prevent the tube from entering the "wrong hole" and ensure it can only go into the stomach. If you hold the bottle portion so that no fluid is flowing, then insert tube all the way in right up to calf's muzzle, then tip bolttle upward and drain contents into calf's stomach at a moderated pace, you should not have problems with fluids going into the lungs.

In our area, Sweet Feed is a 12% or 13 % protien grain mix consisting of rolled oats, cracked corn, and soy or alfalfa pellets along with molasses. If this or similar is what you are referring to, I would encourage you to feed it to your bottle calves. Open their mouth and trickle some on their tongue the first few days to let them gain a taste for it and get started.
I recognize that there are other calf grain products which may be even higher in protien, and they are all well and fine. Sometimes you have to use what is available in your area.

Given the serious nature of the calf's illness, you might consider giving it a follow up shot of LA-200 to prevent a relapse to his former condition. You will have to make that judgement.

[luvrulz]

Hey Joy - how's he doing??