breeding question

[a1cowmilker]

does anyone know where I can find information on breeding?
I was told that our bull could breed his mother but not her sister.
Now we might be in trouble. Both sister and mother are bred and the vet just told me that both are a no no. But it is worse for the mother/son than the half sister/brother breeding.
I know this sounds like a stupid question, but honestly we were told that the mother/son could breed.

The heifers are about 6 months bred so the vet said nothing to do about it and hope that the calf is not so deformed that the cow cannot deliver it.

Anyone have any experience with this?

Again, thanks for the information.

These days, I am simply a cowlover and wish i had given it more thought when I picked my name.

[matt_man]

To my understanding, somebody more knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong, as long as they are not more that 50% related it is ok but it would be preferable if they weren't so closely related. I am curious about this as well since we are hoping for a bull calf from one of our cows to use him as breeding stock for one year before we eat him.

Rachel

[Sunraven]

Your vet is either uninformed or being obnoxious, trying to scare you. It's unlikely the calves will be deformed unless there is some other cause but I doubt I'd want to save any of them for future breeding use, heifer or not. An out cross or crossbred will generally be a larger more vigorous calf but line/inbreeding has it's uses when used by a knowledgeable person.

[john in la]

The breeding of mother to son is worse than son to half sister. Now son to full sister is really bad because we are now including the dad in the problem.
Think about it..... The son is half of his mother. The resulting calf would then be 3/4 of the mother.
The son bred to a 1/2 sister would result in the calf be 1/2 of the orginal mother.
While I would not keep any of the calves; I also would not worry about some deformed calf.

The problem with breeding son to daughter; mother; sister; back to the dad even; just brings out the good and bad of the orginal cows. Most time the bad is noticed before any good is noticed.

Sell the calves and move on.

[ksfarmer]

I agree, your vet is trying to scare you. Although Inbreeding is not a good idea because if there are any undesirable genetics, you are increasing the chances of those traits being shown. Some breeders use what is called Line breeding, but in those cases, the genetics are well know and selected for desirable traits. That is not a "luck of the draw" operation. You will probably not have a problem with your situation, but I wouldn't push my luck again. Whoever told you mother-son breeding is ok, is not nearly as knowledgeable as you believe.

[Dexter_Cattle]

I tell you I agree with the others, the vet is not knowledgeable. Maybe it depends on the breed of cattle but with Dexters alot of people work with linebreeding to bring out quality traits. Though in doing so, somtimes you get bad traits, but I don't think there is anymore of a chance of getting a deformed calf that any other mating. The thing is you are concentrating the genetics so it can make a good situation better or a bad situation worse. The important thing is when the resulting calves are born, really study the quality of them (ie, Hooves, topline, teat placement etc) and if they are not quality put them into little white wrappers in due time. If they are great looking, (I wouldn't do it again) but wouldn't be afraid to keep them for breeding, if they don't have any major faults.

Hope this helps
Dan

[genebo]

The objections to inbreeding (linebreeding) are more moral than scientific. In a pure breed, it insures a perfect copy of the parents. In mixed ancestry, it can be used to standardize the traits of the parents in the offspring. It also can expose recessive traits. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's bad. In a linebreeding program, you must be prepared to cull the bad results. That means that you put the less desirable calves in the freezer.

Linebreeding is the method used to standardize, or reinforce, the traits obtained in cross-breeding two different breeds. That's how new breeds are established. After many generations of controlled breeding, the new cattle will consistently produce offspring that are identical to the parents but different from either of the original breeds. Then they can be called a new breed.

Since the chromosomes split during reproduction, a calf will inherit 1/2 the genes from each of it's parents. These recombine to form new chromosomes consisting of pairs of genes. A calf will have at least 1/2 of it's genes identical to each of it's parent's genes. It will probably have many more, since a lot of the parent's genes were identical. So breeding back to a parent is more likely to produce a second generation calf with many matching pairs of genes. This is purity, but if both of the genes are for a recessive trait, then that trait will be expressed.

Two calves from the same parents can be as alike as identical twins, or can be completely unlike. When you breed brother to sister, the range of possibilities is wider. The second generation calf can be anywhere from identical to completely different. That's why, in a linebreeding program, you will see the same bull listed twice in a calf's pedigree. He's been used to breed back to his daughter(s) to reinforce some good trait that he possesses.

I once had a dog, that in a five generation pedigree, had the same dog listed four times. All his brothers and sisters were georgeous show dogs. I got the cull. He was a mess. I loved him and he lived with me for 15 years. We never bred him. That was our way of culling him from the gene pool.

That's the chances you take when you line breed.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[ArmyDoc]

Most of the posts have already answered your question - the inbreeding of a son to mother or to a half sister can be done. The results depend on the individual cattle involved, not the closeness of the breeding itself.
Breeding related organisms will increase the likelihood of the offspring being homozygous for a given trait. This can be good or bad, depending on the trait being considered. Lets say you want a red calf. Red is recessive. It requires two red genes, homozygous, for the calf to be red. If you get a black gene from one parent and a red gene from the other, the calf will be black, because black is dominant. So if you want a red calf, line breeding will increase the likelihood of your getting red calves. (presuming of course someone in the line carries the red gene)

Sickle cell anemia is another recessive trait. (it's also sex linked but that's another story). In breeding in a family with sickle cell trait would increase the likelihood of having a daughter born homozygous for sickle cell anemia. This is fatal in infancy. Where as a heterozygous daughter, having one gene for sickle cell and one normal would be fine.

In one situation, inbreeding serves your purpose and is a good thing. In the other, it is a bad thing. In your situation, with a presumably healthy mom and son and 1/2 sister, I'd just wait for the calves and see what happens. Meanwhile try to make plans for keeping it from happening again.

Breeding is a complex and fascinating subject. There are lots of different sites where you can learn about it, just do a search. Many sites deal with dogs but still have good info. Others are cattle specific.

[a1cowmilker]

Thank you so much for all the valuable information. This has taken a load off my mind.

We have three heifers and the young bull. The problem we will have is the 8 year old cow has become my dh's pet. She is the mom involved and we don't want to get rid of her or her son. The son looks like he will be a good breeding bull for us. And we do plan to get more cattle.

Perhaps we can find a home for the sister and mom at another place until they are bred back. I don't think we would have any success at simply putting them in another paddock when they are in heat. I think we would just have a fence to fix.

Good thing is, my jersey cow is bred back so I will be getting a 1/2 jersey 1/2 angus limonsein cross calf. I am hoping for a heifer that I might be able to milk.

We always intended to put the resulting calves in the freezer or sell them so we won't have to worry about breeding them to this bull.

Thanks so much, So, it looks like I will take what Mr. Vet tells me with a grain of salt from now on.