Raw Milk Fiasco (please read)

[JeffNY]

Well we have gone through what the "great" state of NY can do. First off, if anyone is thinking about a permit, I highly reccomend avoiding the permit, and sell it under the table. The state does not want you selling raw milk, they will do anything to try to stop you, afterall the same department is the one who was going to push NAIS on us all.


So what happened? Well first off, they found Listeria in the milk. But before I go into that, let me draw up a timeline to other things that happened prior to this.

We didn't get our permit till January, we were supposed to have it by December 1st, but the state dragged their feet. Once we got the permit, things were fine. However shortly after this, the first sample taken came back fine, but they couldn't test the Somatic Cell Count, because of a lab accident. The 2nd sample that was retreived in early March, resulted in a Somatic Cell Count of 550,000, on the very same day DMS's results came back at 55,000. Someone put a comma in the wrong place (gotta love the state). My mother called, and they had already thrown the sample out, since this they are now required to keep all samples 30 days before discarding. Then we get to March 26th, the sample comes back with listeria, and a SCC of 170,000 which is still much higher than both DHIA and DMS's test (was half as big, both DMS and DHIA were around 90,000 for that day. See where I am going with this?


It is very fishy they first have a lab accident, then come up with a ridiculously high SCC count, then they find listeria, and also come with another bad SCC reading? A farmer in the western part of the state also was tested positive for listeria back in December of 06. He had been selling raw milk since January of 06 or 05 (cant remember). Now all of a sudden he had it? Now this is what is funny, his inspector for Horizon had thrown all her test viles out because listeria has been found in a test vile. How about that for a kicker? He firmly beleives his wasn't in the milk, it was from the vile. I firmly beleive ours was from that lab. If that lab is having so many problems, it makes you wonder whats up.


Now here is the other part which is BS. They fine you $300, and have you put a press release in the paper stating they found listeria. That is wrong, and the funny part, criminals get treated better than that. It all comes down to the state not wanting you to sell any milk. So like I said, sell it, dont call them inquiring about it, they will pop in and check you out. Dont get a permit, just be quiet about it. Raw milk is not dangerous. What we are doing is giving up the permit, because we dont want these idiots in our back pocket. You try to be honest, and all they do is stick it to you.


Jeff

[francismilker]

JeffNY,
I think what you're going through is a typical example of "job-perpetuation" for State employees. The common working class people want to do the right thing but don't have the money the corporate world has to yield off bureacracy so we get picked on.
I went through a similiar situation like this when I tried to get my property licensed and certified last year so I could sale sand off of it. In the state of Oklahoma, you're not allowed to move an ounce of dirt or rock off of your property without having a permit and paying the state a percentage of it. While you can move all the dirt from one side to the other, you can't relocate it off your property.
I have an abundance of sand (80 acres about 7 feet thick layer) that can be utilized in the construction industry so I decided to market it. After six months of spending money and time I still wasn't successful so I literally gave up.
I agree that we (the common working class of people) are treated worse than a drug dealer for just trying to do the right thing. I hope things work out for you.

[jerzeygurl]

the milk disappears, people get milk and don't remember where they got it.


loose lips sink ships.... so know your um empty containers...


nais is part of usda...

but explained that in addition to the gross sales figures, NASS also assigns certain “point values” for particular agricultural activities. If the points add up to 1000, your operation would meet the definition of a “farm.”

I asked if Ms. Sprague could find out for me the point values of cattle or other non-equine livestock. She put me on hold for a long while. Subsequently, she gave me the following point values: beef cattle, 310 points per head; dairy cattle, 2000 points per head; goats and sheep, 50 points per head

the above quote is from walters noNAIS site from an article written by a lawyer who questioned the usda ect ....

note how many points a dairy cow gets


you can have 3 beef stock and not be a farm

but if you have ONE diary cow you are twice a farm????

seems fishy to me...

I hate having the vet do the bangs tests and vacc cause all that goes through the USDA, thats who reads the tests...so far my results are apropriate, but could see how it could be messed with. they also get to know how many head you have...

[JeffNY]

Well they sent the press release to 3 papers, should be due to come out tomorrow. If they do call to "interview" us for our take. I will simply say. "The department of AG and Markets do not want farms in buisness, they will do anything to put you out of buisness. They are the same branch of the government that was going to force NAIS on to people, which would have required every single animal to be ID tagged, and in turn would control what you do with that animal. So the government does not want you selling raw milk, and will do everything in their power to prevent you or stop you from selling it."


If they dont like that, then thats all I give. It is my opprotunity to take a shot at them. To me, it doesn't bother me what they put in the paper. It isn't about animal abuse/neglect, it isn't about ripping someone off. It is about a pathogen that NO ONE has any control over. All of those who have bought raw milk from us, know about it. They all said they dont care, and would like to continue buying from us. Most of them said they know how the government works. If anyone asks me, I will tell them what happened. I am not out to hide anything, and neither should anyone if your not in the wrong. Even if they do pop in unannounced, all I have to say they better not park in the way, no I wont run over the car. But I certainly will line them up one side and down the other, especially during hay season. Otherwise I will be as nice as possible, because you can threaten them with trespassing etc etc. But they can make it a living hell, considering state inspectors also come here once a year, and they could be pricks.


Jeff

[sycamore]

I am going to tell everyone who calls looking for raw milk from us what you are going through. This is why I won't sell raw milk, nor even try to get a license for it and I have only 1 cow.

You have our support.

What paper is it coming out in?
I want a copy to post for our inquiring smart raw milk advocates. This is our tax dollars at work, you want raw milk get the law changed!

Go JEFF!

[JeffNY]

After seeing the article last night in the paper. Here is the link

http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...9174630691.txt

http://www.benningtonbanner.com/search/ci_5615484

Now for whats going on, before you read that. The article about us brought out two other farms, not the name, but the town. I did a google search and found the one that isn't overly far away (half hour, or so). As you will notice in the second link, take a close look at the date the sample was retreived, now take a look at when ours was retreived. Notice something interesting? I find it odd that the samples both come back with listeria, on the same exact day, and the same inspector took the sample that happens to be pregnant (if you look up listeria, not a good thing for pregnant women). Why would they have someone that is pregnant out working in the field, knowing whats out there if it all "SO BAD". It all comes down to a big heap of BS.

The one farm in the western part of the state was selling for almost a year, then all of a sudden listeria. The farm locally has been selling for 2 years, then listeria. There are a bunch of farms across the state dropping their permits because of what is going on. The state does not want raw milk sold, so instead, falsify tests to force you out. The test methods are backwards. Now yesterday when they came to take a 2nd sample, my mother noticed something interesting. She wonders, did the inspector even take a sample?

Now that one farm locally said they came 3 times, sat in their driveway seeing if they are going to sell any milk. Now I have a slight change of heart. If they do that here, I will call the sherriff, say that someone has been sitting in my driveway for a while now, and I would like them to be told to leave. Even if they dont go, it will shock the heck out of them.

So is this going to die? No, this is just getting started. It will go public. The government likes to control us, but guess what? Strength in numbers, and the citizens do have more power when banded together.

Jeff

[GrannySue_in_IL]

This sounds way too typical. Thank God IL pretty much leaves everyone alone - at least I THINK they do, lol.

I don't own any livestock, but I belong to an out-of-state-coop that I get my raw milk from. Took me 3 years to find them and get on board, and the Michigan dept of ag hit the coop, while the FDA hit the IN farmer that supplies the milk - on the same day. Neither was for testing, either - it was for interstate commerce!

MDA grabbed the truck and all the product, equipment, etc - while another agent went to the farm and took every file and all the computers/discs etc. Meantime, FDA is in IN at the farm wondering why no response to their letter to cease transport.

We put it out at the No NAIS forums across the country - nothing definitive has happened yet, though there were 2 hearings (one in Feb and another last month). Still getting deliveries, but don't know for how long.

For those interested - it wasn't until the distilleries set up dairies to get rid of their swill grain that laws were passed for pasteurization (1870's or so)... They were making a killing in more ways than one. They still are.

[BobDFL]

Your lucky your not in Central Florida.

Here they would probably condemn your land for the public good (since there is now a health risk there) and sell it to the highest bidding developer.

Then in 6 months there will be 6 houses per acre on the land.

Bob D. in FL.

[JeffNY]

Drug dealers get better treatment than a farmer. It's like the milk is liquid cocaine.


There are a lot of holes in that "press release", considering she says "possible contamination". I love that line "possible". Is it or isn't it? Making a statement like that opens them up to a lot of ridicule.


Jeff

[saramark]

That is why my friends run under the radar and only sell to people that are "OK" They drink their milk all the time as do we, and none of us have ever been sick. Gov trying to get in another area of peoples lives.

[Teacupliz]

having trouble posting so I will make this short- I am selling raw goats and cow milk in NYS and have a great inspector. All is going well for me so far-Liz in NY

[Teacupliz]

I would like to keep in touch with anyone else in Ny that has their raw milk permit, My inspector is wonderful and takes a sample in front of me and seals it. he told me if I get a bad sample he would help me fix the problem. We all need to work together to fix NYS way of thinking- It is legal to sell raw milk with a permit and we need to get the permit and not let them take this from us or they will change the law. I found the same thing when we started homeschool anthing new needs to be tested and worked on. and we need to use the law. anyone wanted to start some kind of group let me know Liz in NY

[JeffNY]

Locally two goat farmers stopped selling, one stopped a while ago. She had some bacteria appear in her milk that goats dont get. The other, something similar happened, they stopped.


I hope you continue to have good luck, and on this side we are going to work to get rid of the fine, and press release. Because listeria (even if it was in there) is something we cant control. Being fined for something we cant control is BS. I can understand if its in a product, such as pasteurized milk, but in a product that is known to possibly have something. Its BS.

Get this, in 1985, listeria was found in a Mass. plant, it was found in the pasteurized product.


Jeff

[Teacupliz]

Most of the the things our goverment think are killed in pasterization are now. I hate goverment control. I pray you problems get worked out. Only time will tell how I do.
Hoping to be able to sell my milk. If not I guess I may ship milk. Where exactly are you?
I kow I have herd the inspectors in eastern NY are brutal..
Liz

[willow_girl]

Jeff, I gotta say I am kinda disappointed and a bit surprised by your attitude in this matter.

Listeria is no laughing matter. It sickens 2500 Americans a year, killing one in five. If I were in your shoes, I think I'd be very, very thankful that none of my customers were injured as a result of buying my product!

As far as not being able to do anything about Listeria ... well, anything that prevents milk from being contaminated by manure will reduce the risk. I believe Cornell has done some research on modes of transmission and risk reduction. Might wanna check that out ...

As far as videotaping the inspector, I agree that's your right, but I'm afraid if you start crying foul over the fact he opened the tank, he will make you look like a whacko ... after all, he has a perfectly logical explanation ... i.e., he was inspecting the inside of the tank (kinda hard to do otherwise without X-ray glasses, eh?!).

If you're going to continue selling raw milk without a license, you might want to run your plan by your insurance agent and find out if you'll still be covered in the event of an incident. It would be a shame to lose your farm in a lawsuit because someone developed a stomach ache after drinking your milk ...

[Highland]

Willow girl---- excellent post

[JeffNY]

Willow Girl,


The states testing does not protect you, everything they do when they find a pathogen is to get them free from being liable. They release a press release for you, you dont have a choice. When they release the press release EVERYONE, including lawyers can get ahold of it. They title it that the farm releases the press release, when in fact, we dont. A farm in western NY didn't work with the state for a press release. Instead they submitted their own, which put the farm in a bad light. He gained 3 new customers from that press release. So it did the opposite of what the state was trying to do.


As far as listeria's danger. In 2004 only 50 cases were reported related to listeria. That average of 2500 is also different on other sites. I have seen it as low as 1600, with 400 dieing each year. Any disease that can effect the nervous system can be dangerous, however listeria does not effect that many, and the way they measure it is not quantitative, it is based on a negative/positive result. It takes 1000 cells to infect you, and in that sample, it could have been as small as 100. As long as it shows up, its all they care about.

Listeria can not be controlled, it is in the enviornment. They fine you for something that you cant prevent. If there was a test that could be read back, that only takes seconds. You could control it, by testing a sample out of each cow. However it takes 3-4 days to get a prelim. result. Both samples collected this past week came back negative. We did our own, through a lab locally as well. The way things are cleaned here, and how clean they are, outside contamination is the culprit.

As far as that video. The state can TRY to pass that off as no big deal. However I did call the inspector that checks us out for DMS. He said that the lid is not supposed to be lifted up, or the stick removed (sticking your fingers like he did where the stick goes) while milk is in the tank. The only time that lid is lifted up is just prior to the driver pumping the tank out into the truck. Once they take their sample (driver), the milk is theirs. So he potentially contaminated that batch, by lifting that lid up. They also did not wash their boots coming in, and going. They took the receiving jar apart, and left it apart, exposing that to bacteria. Everything they did, was off the books.


Now willow, you can defend them till the cows come home, that is your right and part of being a citizen of this country. However the fact is. When they take a sample they do not wear any full arm protection, they are not required to wear any gloves, they come farm to farm, without properly sanatizing themselves. Some inspectors do inspect farms that are not selling raw milk. The fact this one inspector was somewhere between 8am-10am, and two farms the same day test positive, makes it a little interesting. I will make an example of contamination.

December of 2005, a Jersey we had calved out. Later that month we decided to take a sample of her milk, check for pathogens. Now before I continue, this is how we did it (the same way the Ag and Markets inspectors do it). We washed off the teats, we did not wipe the ends with alchohol. I stripped into the vile, without any gloves. The results came back with staph. She does not have staph. Staph is in the enviornment, and is usually found on their hide/hair. I contaminated that sample, because I did not properly take a sample WITH proper protection. With the inspector not wearing ANY protection of ANY kind, she likely contaminated the sample. The vehicles they drive are driven by any, that are employed by Ag and Markets, the vehicles are not clean in other words.

Now they are not required to wear gloves, which is BS. A "dairy specialist" at ag and markets said that the "milk truck driver doesn't wear protection". Well one thing he fails to realise, they do not test for pathogens, they test for SCC, Urea, Nitrogen, BF, Prot, Other solids, bacteria and PI. They do not test for things that a human can contaminate something with such as listeria, E-Coli, and the other pathogens. So what the milk truck driver does, is totally different than what the ag and markets tester does.

The last tid-bit. If this was such a bad pathogen, and they know darn well it exists. They would not of had an inspector who was pregnant on for such a long time. They knew since September of 2006 she was pregnant. All the while she was going farm to farm, taking samples. They know the primary risk is to a pregnant women's fetus. They finally took her off her duties the last week of March, which was planned for quite sometime. Here they warn about all the problems with listeria, but contradict themselves with someone who is pregnant out testing in the field, and she also was inspecting other farms that do not sell raw milk.


A farmer who is sticking to his guns, and the more crap I keep hearing that people are being put through by the state, the harrassment. I am glad we pulled our permit. and no, it does NOT protect you.


Jeff

[greg273]

We get raw milk on the barter system, keeps the feds out, keeps everyone happy. Just gotta keep quiet about it, unfortunately.
It seems best to keep govt. out when they do more harm than good. I dont feel too bad or guilty about that, after all, in our democracy, WE THE PEOPLE, literally, ARE the govt. (of course, some bureacrats may need that explained to them).
Best of luck, Jeff, your situation will raise awareness of this issue, and hopefully the forces of truth and sanity will prevail. People deserve the freedom to choose where they get their food from, without government interference.

[saramark]

Actually, from my time in the seafood industry, I could tell you that Listeria is most commonly suffered from seafood, not dairy or any other source. We have to boil, hold at boiling for 2 minutes and cool quickly, the crabs for this purpose. How many people actually got listeria from milk? There are no numbers on that, not that I have seen. I say keep clean, do your best(which is alot of effort) and keep the raw milk market alive. It is shameful what the Govt is trying to do to small farmers that are producing quality products.

mark