mini cattle Question

[Callieslamb]

I have read much discussion on the miniature cattle breeds. I am afraid I don't get the advantage of them other than that they are smaller therefore easier to deal with. They look great and I wouldn't mind being in the middle of a pasture of them. But if you can have two for the space/feed of one, don't you have two to prep for milking - if that's your breed? And two to get sick? Two to vaccinate? Two to haul? Do two weigh out in more beef than one reg. cow would for the cost of feeding? They seem to cost about what 3-4 regular cows would cost. It seems the only economical purpose for them is breeding.

Or am I only finding prices on the expensive side of the herd?

Just trying to get it all straightened out. They really tempt me.

[OregonGuys]

1. Keeping a small bull is much easier to manage, safer, and more economical - a 900 pound bull eats much less than a 2300 pound bull.

2. 700 lb cows don't damage wet pastures as much as 1600 lb cows.

3. Dexter beef is top-notch - never had better beef - ever.

4. When it comes time to slaughter the small breeds, a single freezer will do. The large breeds can swamp you in beef (freezer burned because it will last you so long).

5. Minimal handling facilities are needed for the smaller breeds.

6. Cows/bulls that are taller than you, are intimidating, the small breeds (Dexters) are not.

7. With small breeds, It's very practical to keep a real / sustainable herd. Cattle are herd animals and very social. They do better in groups rather than just a single animal or two. Let's say you have enough pasture to feed 3000 lbs of animals. With Dexters, you could have 1 bull at 900 lbs, 2 cows at 700 each, and two calves up to 350 lbs each. With large breeds,after you get your 2300 lb bull, there isn't enough pasture for even one 1600 lb cow, let alone a calf.

8. Small breeds are easier on fences.

9. Small breeds can be healthier, because they haven't been overbred for industrial use and haven't become dependent on antibiotics. (we've never had a sick cow in the last 3 years - and no antibiotics)

10. Large breed cows can have calving problems. Little or no problems with Dexters.

We're really sold on our Dexters. Worth every penny we paid. I'm sure others can sing the praises of their small breeds too.

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by Callieslamb

I have read much discussion on the miniature cattle breeds. I am afraid I don't get the advantage of them other than that they are smaller therefore easier to deal with. They look great and I wouldn't mind being in the middle of a pasture of them. But if you can have two for the space/feed of one, don't you have two to prep for milking - if that's your breed? And two to get sick? Two to vaccinate? Two to haul? Do two weigh out in more beef than one reg. cow would for the cost of feeding? They seem to cost about what 3-4 regular cows would cost. It seems the only economical purpose for them is breeding.

Or am I only finding prices on the expensive side of the herd?

Just trying to get it all straightened out. They really tempt me.

I would say avoid any "rare" breed, "heritage" breed, "mini" breed, or "small" breed, or any such novelty breeds as you might flee the plague. Look to your neighbors who are in the cattle business, find the common breeds thriving in your area, and from them choose a breed suiting your personal nature; your cattle will cost you less, you will be happier, surplus stock will find a ready market, you will have easy access to replacement stock, and your local AI guy will give you an easy access to the finest bulls on the planet, bulls with actual records as to milk and meat production abilities, not just guestimates and hearsay.

[OregonGuys]

Originally Posted by Haggis

I would say avoid any "rare" breed, "heritage" breed, "mini" breed, or "small" breed, or any such novelty breeds as you might flee the plague. Look to your neighbors who are in the cattle business, find the common breeds thriving in your area, and from them choose a breed suiting your personal nature; your cattle will cost you less, you will be happier, surplus stock will find a ready market, you will have easy access to replacement stock, and your local AI guy will give you an easy access to the finest bulls on the planet, bulls with actual records as to milk and meat production abilities, not just guestimates and hearsay.

If you extend this logic to all of homesteading you might say:

1. Don't raise any other breed of chicken other than hybrid leghorn and put them 6 to a cage in a factory building with florescent lighting to lay white eggs. Make certain you have at least 100,000 layers per building because the margins are dime-thin. That's what your neighbors in the chicken business do.

2. Don't raise heritage tomatoes, instead by hybrid plants with names like H021. That's what folks in the tomato business do. Yeh, they're a little cardboard tasting, but you can ship em 3000 miles without a bruise.

3. Don't have honeybees to provide you with sweetness, build a sugar factory like the pros, or better yet build a lab and make artificial sweetener in a test tube. Yep, that's what the neighbors in the sweetener business do.

4. Pigs? yep, only raise pigs in tiny cages in a building with (yes, you guessed it, florescent lighting). No need to see that nasty old sun. Afterall, that's what your neighbors in the pig business do.

5. Goats?, well, they don't make sense at all, they've been replaced by monster industrialized milk cows standing around on concrete with food concentrate shoveled in one end and liquid poop piped out the other end and pumped to the big lagoon. That's what your neighbors in the milk business do.

Finally, why even bother with a homestead? Just live in the burbs and drive your 10 mpg SUV each day to buy your food in boxes and styrofoam containers at the Walmart.

If you want simplicity, sustainability, and want happy animals the only way to go is the heritage breeds. If you want to get into agribusiness and compete with the big-boys of industry on their terms, then go with the industrial breeds.

[Haggis]

I do have bees, I do have chickens, I do have pigs, I do have ducks, I do have geese, I do have cattle, and I have them all for no reason beyond providing food our table, our children, and their children's table.

We haven't taken anything to the extremes you mention, nor should anyone trying to be a self-provider, nor do we have "profit margins" to fret over; we have nothing for sale.

Many of the novelty breeds were at one time or another something to speak of, but now they are caricatures of their former selves, much as most show dogs came from a utility breed but are now just for looking at, for pets, or for showing. Really, just because some ancestors of the rare, heritage, or novelty breed cattle may have achieved some distinction long in the past, in herds carefully bred over many years, does in no way imply that the tiny inbred "herds" of 2 to 6 animals can or ever will reach the productive abilities of those few high producting animals in the long distant past. On the other hand, a healthy cull, but docile, medium sized cow from most any commercial dairy will serve a smallholder more admirably than any of the inbred novelty breeds can ever hope.

I had and enjoyed American Milking Devons (a rare breed), and the only claims of the devotees to the breed would make as to their abilities were: they are an unimproved breed, they make fair beef, milk production might be enough for a single family, and they make the best oxen. Today's AMD's can mostly be traced back a few years and to a single farm in New York, which means inbreeding to the extreme, and as with most all of the novelty breeds, they are bred to be sold to someone looking for a novelty breed. If I were wealthy I might yet have a herd of them, but, as with the novelty breeds, they have no place on the farm of a self-provider looking for plenty of milk and a little beef. On the other hand, if a person is looking to make money by selling such breeds to newcomers to the land, and as the perfect homesteading cow, then they are just the ticket.

[OregonGuys]

duplicate post -

[OregonGuys]

Originally Posted by Haggis

I do have bees, I do have chickens, I do have pigs, I do have ducks, I do have geese, I do have cattle, and I have them all for no reason beyond providing food our table, our children, and their children's table.

Not to be contentious, but what breeds of chickens do you have? Do you keep the parent stock? Have you raised your own for generations? Where do you get your replacements from?

[Haggis]

We have a hodge-podge of breeds, and barnyard mongrels, none of which in any way resemble their forebearers, except perhaps a bit in size and color. Herself likes a variety for color, but we are not breeders of chickens, we leave that to the professionals who have 10's of thousands of birds from which to choose the most productive in their respective flocks.

I prefer to buy meat type chicks to raise for meat, and egg type chicks to raise for eggs; we buy form several different hatcheries.

[jersey girl]

Back to the cows, we have a small herd of mini jerseys. One cow gives an average of 4 gallons of high butterfat milk. All of the other things are true, they are gentle, eat much less, are easier on pastures etc. When we butcher our steers, we don't get as much meat as our neighbor with dexters gets, but we also use a lot of milk and butter so the trade off is worth it for us.
Joanie

[OregonGuys]

Originally Posted by Haggis

I prefer to buy meat type chicks to raise for meat, and egg type chicks to raise for eggs; we buy form several different hatcheries.

I think the difference of opinion we have lies in the models we're following. If you're interested in self-sufficiency and sustainability, the heritage breeds can't be beat. We have a model on our farm that will allow us to have beef, eggs, milk, pork, chicken, lamb, and garden produce for a long time into the future while minimizing inputs. Doing this requires a good knowledge of animal and plant breeding, which anyone can acquire.

If you're interested in just raising a few animals that someone else hatches or calves and you're not interested in supporting heritage breeds and local sustainable heritage farms, then go with whatever breed is most economical.

[OregonGuys]

Originally Posted by jersey girl

Back to the cows, we have a small herd of mini jerseys. One cow gives an average of 4 gallons of high butterfat milk. All of the other things are true, they are gentle, eat much less, are easier on pastures etc. When we butcher our steers, we don't get as much meat as our neighbor with dexters gets, but we also use a lot of milk and butter so the trade off is worth it for us.
Joanie

Just curious, are the mini-jerseys an attempt to return the Jerseys to their original stature, before the industrial dairy folks pumped up their size? or are they even smaller than the originals?

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by OregonGuys

I think the difference of opinion we have lies in the models we're following. If you're interested in self-sufficiency and sustainability, the heritage breeds can't be beat. We have a model on our farm that will allow us to have beef, eggs, milk, pork, chicken, lamb, and garden produce for a long time into the future while minimizing inputs. Doing this requires a good knowledge of animal and plant breeding, which anyone can acquire.

If you're interested in just raising a few animals that someone else hatches or calves and you're not interested in supporting heritage breeds and local sustainable heritage farms, then go with whatever breed is most economical.

We raise more than a few animals, but we leave the breeding of hogs, chickens, bees, and bulls to those folks who have enormous resources for development, while we strive the most high quality food possible in return for our farmstead efforts. But to return to the questions posed by Callieslamb; if you want the least amount of milk per animal milked, and don't mind waiting for a beef to take two years to reach the weight of a 10 month old steer of the more common breeds, then by all means, buy a novelty breed.

By the by, I haven't had a sick cow or a calving problem in three years either, nor do I use any sort of medical anti-anything on my cattle.

[Donna from Mo]

"and your local AI guy will give you an easy access to the finest bulls on the planet"

I wish I could find an AI guy. All the big farmers around here do their own AI, I can't find anyone who will come to my house for a fee and do the job.

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by Donna from Mo

"and your local AI guy will give you an easy access to the finest bulls on the planet"

I wish I could find an AI guy. All the big farmers around here do their own AI, I can't find anyone who will come to my house for a fee and do the job.

It took me quite a while to find someone who does AI. I ended up going to the county fair, a big outing for an agoraphobic, but I got in before the fair opened and went straight to the cattle. I found a dairyman there who does his own cattle and who said he would drop by my place when I needed him, and then he remembered another fellow nearer to me. The fellow who comes by now charges $12 for the job and $12 a straw for the semen, if the cow doesn't take there is no other charge other than for semen on further visits; in other words he keeps coming until the job is done for the initial $12. It works out way cheaper than trying to keep a bull, and I get to keep all of my heifers; something I could not have done with my own bull.

The fellow who does my cows also does horses, in point of fact, he got started with horses and moved on to cattle when he discovered a demand for it.

[genebo]

Jersey girl seems to have done her homework. She chose a Jersey cow that gives her 4 gallons a day, because she needed 4 gallons a day. She traded the beef of a Dexter because a Dexter cow won't give that much milk. That's the way to figure it out.

For many of us, 4 gallons a day is more than we need, so we can afford to take a cow that will also give us great beef calves. In most cases, we only want a fraction of that milk and will let the beef calf have the rest. That's when the Dexter is the best choice.

If everyone examined their needs the way Jersey girl did, it would be easy to make a breed selection. There are probably some who would even find a Holstein the right choice, if their milk needs were that high.

Milk ain't free. The cow has to eat to make milk. The cow that eats the most makes the most milk. It's a sensible choice to select a cow that only makes as much milk as you're going to take from her. It saves on the feed bill.

Putting some great beef on the table is a factor not to be denied. Some of us do like to eat a good steak.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

[OregonGuys]

By the way, I do agree with the advice to stay away from novelty animals. I have a rule on our farm that if an animal isn't producing well we eat it. When some folks see our Dexters they remark: "I was expecting something quite novel, but these look just like regular cattle, just more compact" You can't tell they are small until you get up close to them. There's not much novel about them.

At 18 months we average 365 lbs hanging weight with 285 lbs cut and wrapped grass-fed beef.

At 24 months we average 520 lbs hanging weight with 380 lbs of cut and wrapped grass fed beef.

This is on grass and hay alone.

[Haggis]

The fascination with small breeds is not new by any means. This is from or speaking of very small cattle, under 41", in the early 19th century, and even a direct quote from magazine of the time;

"Dwarf cattle were much sought during the 19th century for ornaments on the lawns of country estates, as the Punch cartoon shows, and as appears also from such advertisements as those offering a Kerry cow 41 inches high, or India Dwarf bullocks 33 inches in height "including the hump," or a "half-bred Alderney, very small", or a halfbred Alderney "small and compact park-like cow."

"It was for this reason that these little animals, so small as to be called toy cattle, were desired as ornaments upon the lawns of great country estates in England. "As to the Alderneys," a writer in the Agricultural Magazine said "they are a mere fancy breed, looking pretty in a gentleman`s park.. very light in the carcase and small, when made fat come to no weight and are by no means suitable stock for a farmer."

It appears I am not the first to have a dim view very small cattle as a cottager's first choice; in the past they were once an aristocrat's first choice to decorate the estate and for looking at. Though this article deals primarily with Channel Island cattle history it does mention the fad for small cattle on large estates as "toy" cattle.

http://www.jersey.syd-fyn.dk/prentice.htm

[OregonGuys]

I think the fascination with the very small animal is rather like the fascination with the very large that has driven breeders to create grain-eating giants out of formerly moderate sized breeds over the last 30 years. Look at what they did to Angus.

In the grass-fed beef movement, sizes are coming way down from the giant breeds and a good number of Dexter breeders are moving toward moderate sized Dexters. A 700 lb Dexter cow isn't toy-sized and a 1000 pound Dexter bull is plenty big. There's nothing toy-like about our Dexter herd.

I agree with staying away from the extreme toy-like animals (unless you are in the pet trade) and also would suggest staying away from the giantized breeds (unless you are in industrial agribusiness).

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

I'm going to a smaller breed - probably Lowline Angus. I already have a smaller Beefmaster cow. She will be AI'd to a lowline bull to give me a half lowline calf. I will be adding a Brangus baldie heifer this year. She also will go to a lowline Bull via AI. Each of the calfs that are heifers will go to a lowline bull too making 3/4 lowline calves. Someday my cows will all be full blood lowline. Prices on lowline for my purposes of having smaller cattle is way out of whack. I can't afford 2800.00 to 4500.00 for percentage animals. I sure can't afford $8,000.00 and up for a pure lowline. Time I have plenty of.

[jersey girl]

As to size of the mini jerseys, there are different sizes. Some folks like the novelty mini cow that could easily walk under a normal table. I don't know how practical they are to milk as I have never tried one. We do have one bull this size, born to one of our cows a few days after we bought them. At 18 months he was 27" tall. He is a sweetie and just like a pet. He would not be practical as a farm bull. We are keeping him because there is a market for his semen. He will be collected and tested for the first time in a few months.

The rest of our cows are about 42" tall. They just look like small jerseys. At this size they are easy to milk and easy to handle. A full grown, lactating cow averages 500 - 600 pounds.

We do use a lot of milk here. We drink a lot and make cheeses and yogurts. All leftovers are fed to pigs.

I agree that when choosing a cow you have to look at what your needs are and then study and choose the right breed for you

Joanie