Norwegian Red crosses (Mark T)

[dosthouhavemilk]

Dostthouhavemilk,

Was the Norweigan Red you used Svartsad? How did you end up liking his calves? I bought a straw of his last year but it didn't take. One of the crossbreeding workshops put on by the local grazing group had a discussion that here in Virginia (and California) people weren't pleased with Norweigen reds or Normande crosses. Folks who want heterosis in this area are shifting to Montbeliarde or Swedish Red or another just crossbreeding Jersey into their Holsteins.

I'm interested in your experience.

We used Myrher-P who was offered by Genex/CRI. We bred him to 8 cows about 7 years ago now and ended up with two heifers and two bulls. The two half and half heifers didn't last as long in our herd as most of our Jerseys do. Slicker gave 80 pounds a day as a first freshener with good components, but she had her dam's line's udder and didn't last past her second lactation (but they always drop one daughter and the udders improve each time-her daughter is in her second lactation and looks good except for her broken ankle). The other half and half heifer lost her front two quarters to mastitis during her first lactation (and just about died), but since she continued to put 40+ pounds in the bucket a day and her components were nice we kept her around. Even kept a son out of her and Jace (expensive Jersey bull) as clean-up (convience in this case). She was shipped when we needed space and money. Salvage value is better than our straight Jerseys...
We retained one of the bull calves out of Myrher and one of our best dam lines. We lost his dam shortly after his birth. El Tigre was naturally polled and at 7 months old settled his first cow (one of the oldest cows in the herd). We had put him down at the Sheep Shed and he got bored so he got out. We weren't concerned with him running with the cow herd...he was only 7 months old afterall. A few months later dad realized the cows weren't cycling. Had the vet out to palpate and turns out he had settled half the entire herd in 5 months. Shipped him off. 9 months later we had 11 daughters (and 5 sons) out of him including a set of twin heifers. These were 3/4 Jersey, 1/4 Norwegian Reds. All but one of those joined the milking herd. They out test our purebred Jerseys (much higher Protein, which is what we were looking for) and outproduce in a many of the cases. We sold four for dairy and only one has been culled for slaughter (2nd lactation, mastitis, didn't breed back-needed space and money), though the cow that is 3/4 blind in her udder and in her eyesight does not appear to be settled. She will probably be beefed. Here's hoping she doesn't have another brain explosion on the trip. She was born slightly deformed and has since gotten worse.
Our first 7/8 Jersey, 1/8 N.R will enter the herd in April. A daughter to one of the twin cows we sold (they had both produced two daughters so they were sold for dairy). She was supposed to calve this past September but aborted at 6 months gestation.
Udder wise we are breeding back to bulls with higher rear udders because theirs are low. They classify well (AJCA) as long as we get an Appraiser who doesn't mind a beefier look. We got one who simply hated our crossbreeds and she knocked them all down.
Dad is pleased. He figured it would either be good or be the end of the herd. with that many daughters.
How much of the udder and productions on El Tigre's daughters is from the NR aspect is unclear. Most of it probably comes from Shenekwa's line as they wer a very solid strong line of Jerseys.
The survival rate of calves has been outstanding! Before the NR calves were being born dead or too weak to survive. El Tigre rolled down a hill minutes after being born into a briarpatch. Dad went to retrieve him but at 15 minutes old he was dragging himself up and out.
They are bit harder on our barn and a bit larger than our herd has been, but not by much. We pasture so they are out with everyone else.


Amistad (3/4 J, 1/4 NR)- 2nd Freshener. I was collecting her heifer calf when this picture was taken. She's the polled cow that threw a horned heifer when bred to a polled bull (both Pp).


Jason-8 months old (a few days before he settled his first heifer). 3/4 J, 1/4 NR out of the two qaurtered Myrher daughter.


Siv (3/4 J, 1/4 NR). Jason's older half sister with her first calf, a bull out of Morgan.


Juness (3/4 J, 1/4 NR) with our oldest cow, Amity. Juness is a second freshener in that picture. She's produced two heifers. The older looks just like her colorwise and the second is looking like a red brindle at this stage.



Space Cadet Toby (Essie) (3/4 J, 1/4 NR). El Tigre's first daughter. These shots are 11 months into her first lactation. She is now 16+ months into her first lactation and hopefully...finally settled back (not their fault..mine..still learning).


Freya (3/4 J, 1/4 NR-twin). This is one of El Tigre's twins we sold for dairy. She was just fresh with her second heifer calf in this picture.

We are breeding back to Jersey. It worked well in our herd, but not something we will continue to do.

Keep in mind, we have 19 cows on test right now (2 dry). Very small herd and these crosses are a large portion of it at this point.
I still think that our Jerseys had a lot to do with the success we saw. When looking at these pictures I can see the dam traits there as well.
I've heard the udders are an issue. How low they are. And we have noticed they are lower to the ground, but dad just blames that on the Holstein in the breeding...... (Gotta love breed loyalties...lol) He used to test so he's seen lots and lots of Holsteins.
Anyways, by using a bull out of a dam with a beautiful udder, I think we managed to avoid the problems a lot noted with the breed.

Probably mroe than you were looking for, huh?

[Mark T]

Thanks for the extensive reply!

8 years ago you did this. Wow. You must have been on the cutting edge of the crossbreeding.

With 19 cows, you are on the very low end of dairymen. I think it is a shame that everything has gotten so big. My grandfather raised a family on the backs (udders?) of 20 mongrel Holsteins. My uncle raised his on 40 high quality registered Holsteins. But my cousin is now milking 1400 scrub Holsteins in a 24-hour parlor/milk factory and is hanging on by his fingernails. How do you make it with so few cows in 2007? Do you direct market or cow share or make cheese? If you can make it with a small herd, perhaps I could too!

I'd like to get into grass-based dairying but the barrier to entry is too high, so I will continue doing the grassfed beef. But... I'm using dairy semen so if the chance ever comes, I'll have the start of a herd and some experience with MIG.

You mentioned problems settling. How do the crosses compare with the purebreds? One of the reasons the local graziers are using crossbreeding is to improve fertility; they want to calve in a tight window so they can make milk on grass.

Regarding the low udder issue, I think that many of the current AI companies have states for rear udder attachment which (I would think) help keep them off the ground.

[dosthouhavemilk]

I can answer some of the questions and my hope is dad will respond as well since the herd is his. I'm just the occasional help and record keeper...lol
Our half and halfs were born in September of 2000, so I guess it has only been 6 years...lol
Dad saw some Holstein/Norwegian Red cows being shown at the county Fair and liked their looks. Our calves were incredibly weak despite healthy dams and easy deliveries. Our herd wasn't nearly as closely linebred as some Jersey herds with past herd bulls being outcrosses from the norm.

As far as making it goes? The government wouldn't agree we are...lol We also make use of Posilac (have since it came out) which will have a number on this Board immediately considering us horrible people and abusive towards our cattle.
We have a Grade A dairy (stanchion barn and bucket system still...lol) and DFA takes our milk, I think.

We do feed grain, of course, but when we can the cows are out on pasture.

Settling rates....well. Those twins I mentioned. Their dam had trouble settling to AI (but no trouble settling to live service). The twins had delivered two calves by the time they were 4. They settled first service each time (the second time for both was to Jason).
The problem here is, I have been doing the AIing since December of 2005. My skills leave a lot to be desired (and as my AIing skills improved my conception rate plummeted). Since the majority of the crossbreeds are just now turning 5, it isn't as easy to say. When Don was still breeding they usually had a fairly good conception rate. Our Jerseys aren't/weren't bad though. Only a select few and that tended to be a trait from the family line.

We are breeding with rear udder height in mind. Most of the Jersey bulls are good udders, so it isn't an issue. Hermaine's udder is developing nicely (7/8 J, 1/8 NR). They aren't horrible, but I can see where the concern is. They are definitely lower than our Jerseys.