Need "Cows 101" Class, Please :)

[LauraKoz]

I come to you all as a humbled, entirely-equine person, with little to no experience in the cattle department

The only experience I have with cows is that one moment of pre-teen stupidity where I attempted to jump up onto one cowboy style (Don't worry, I was promptly put in my place...)

I'm looking at bringing a few extra critters into a summer camp environment and have a few (thousand) questions for those of you out there interested in educating me:

1. How often do they need their feet trimmed? Will a rasping suffice or do they need to see a farrier? If so, is your typical horse farrier sufficient or are they overstepping their bounds there?
2. Will they get along well with a) horses? b) sheep? c) goats?
3. Do cows require deworming?
4. With my non-working horses, they are given a diet completely consisting of forage (if able to maintain their weight), not needing any concentrates... is it the same with cows if given access to a round bale and some grass?
5. Any special needs (diet or otherwise), that a non-cattle person wouldn't think of (They will have access to the same salt and mineral blocks as the horses, do they need their own?)
7. One breed or type (e.g. dairy versus non-dairy) easier to deal with (in terms of needs) or more apt to be people/kid-friendly and enjoy attention?
8. What are some important things to keep an eye out for when it comes to happy, healthy cows? (e.g. With horses, one might mention snotty noses, listlessness, colic symptoms, etc).

Thank you all very much. Some of you may have seen my similar goat topic (and soon, sheep topic), so feel free to respond about those critters here, as well.

p.s. If anyone is in Alabama/Georgia and looking to send a critter or two off to summer camp to get them out of their hair, I'd be happy to provide room and board

[Ken Scharabok]

1. How often do they need their feet trimmed? Will a rasping suffice or do they need to see a farrier? If so, is your typical horse farrier sufficient or are they overstepping their bounds there?
2. Will they get along well with a) horses? b) sheep? c) goats?

(Normally yes, but is a rather animal by animal situation. I have one cow who is fairly friendly with my donkeys. Others tolerate them.)

3. Do cows require deworming?

(Normally it is done as a matter of routine.)

4. With my non-working horses, they are given a diet completely consisting of forage (if able to maintain their weight), not needing any concentrates... is it the same with cows if given access to a round bale and some grass?

(Yes. Occasional treats do help keep them docile though.)

5. Any special needs (diet or otherwise), that a non-cattle person wouldn't think of (They will have access to the same salt and mineral blocks as the horses, do they need their own?)

(Normally salt blocks for horses are forumulated different then those for cattle. Check with your livestock feed provider if they have a multipurpose one.)

7. One breed or type (e.g. dairy versus non-dairy) easier to deal with (in terms of needs) or more apt to be people/kid-friendly and enjoy attention?

(Very much an animal by animal situation. You would like do better acquiring a bottle calf and raising it so it is use to a lot of human companionship. Perhaps consider a mineature breed.)

8. What are some important things to keep an eye out for when it comes to happy, healthy cows? (e.g. With horses, one might mention snotty noses, listlessness, colic symptoms, etc).

(Typically animals don't acquire illnesses from humans. Rarely the other way around also.)

[tyusclan]

Normally cattle don't need their feet trimmed. Moving around in the pasture usually keeps them worn down just fine. There is the occasional one that this is not true for. You would probably need a cattle trimmer for that one. Horse farriers usually won't do cattle. It's so rare that I wouldn't worry about it.

I pretty much agree with Ken on the rest, but I would add one caveat on the bottle calf. That calf will most likely be a bull dairy calf. Make sure you either band or castrate him if you go that route. And never let him start to invade your space or push against you as he gets older.

[Ken Scharabok]

I have one cow with 'elves foot' on one rear hoof. Essentially the front portion of the hoof grows aggressively and curls back towards the leg. About every other year when she comes through the chute for vaccination/deworming that hoof gets trimmed with a limb lopper. She favors the leg at bit, but biggest problem is the hoof catches long forages as she walks. She is a favorite, otherwise may have been culled long ago.

I understand full-confinement dairys have professional hoof trimmers come by every so often to trim the dairy cows hooves. Suspect they use some type of portable stanchion to where legs can be lifted for trimming. Believe me a cow does not like to have her hoofs lifted. I've seen reports there is pretty good money in providing this service.

[jerzeygurl]

Originally Posted by Ken Scharabok

I understand full-confinement dairys have professional hoof trimmers come by every so often to trim the dairy cows hooves. Suspect they use some type of portable stanchion to where legs can be lifted for trimming. Believe me a cow does not like to have her hoofs lifted. I've seen reports there is pretty good money in providing this service.

yes ive seen this done at the local dairy that gives tours.

our pasture is rocky so our hooves dont need trimmed, including equine, they all wear naturally .

1. How often do they need their feet trimmed? Will a rasping suffice or do they need to see a farrier? If so, is your typical horse farrier sufficient or are they overstepping their bounds there?

As long as the animal has sufficient excercise you shouldn't have to trim feet on cattle. However, some animals do need their feet trimmed. There are professionals that do this, and they have the tools to do it. If I had an animal that needed its feet done I would find someone that dealt with cattle.

2. Will they get along well with a) horses? b) sheep? c) goats?

Cattle will get along well with goats and sheep. They will get along with horses as well, but the horses may not get along with them. Horses will often start chasing the cattle, especially at feeding time. We don't keep our horses with the cattle unless it is on pasture during the summer. Depending on the horse, you can keep an eye on the situation and separate them if needed.

3. Do cows require deworming?

Yes, it is a good idea to worm them. Young animals especially need worming. There are many different options out there for worming.

4. With my non-working horses, they are given a diet completely consisting of forage (if able to maintain their weight), not needing any concentrates... is it the same with cows if given access to a round bale and some grass?

Yes it is. As long as the animal is in good condition an all forage diet will be fine.

5. Any special needs (diet or otherwise), that a non-cattle person wouldn't think of (They will have access to the same salt and mineral blocks as the horses, do they need their own?)

You will want to have a mineral formulated for cattle. Keep in mind that there are some feeds/feed additives that are not safe to feed to all species of animals. If you are running several different species together it would be a very good idea to talk to a vet or nutritionist to find out if what you want to feed is safe for all of them.

7. One breed or type (e.g. dairy versus non-dairy) easier to deal with (in terms of needs) or more apt to be people/kid-friendly and enjoy attention?

Some breeds are known to be calmer than others. Having said that though, it does depend on the individual. Some breeds that are known for being quiet are Hereford, Shorthorn, Jersey, Guernsey etc.

A good plan may be to either find an orphan you can bottle raise or an older milk cow that is used to being handled. In the case of an orphan calf you will have to be sure to teach it manners, and if it is a bull calf it MUST be castrated. In the case of a milk cow you will have to milk her at least 2 times a day, or you will want to find 2-3 calves to put on her while she is milking.

8. What are some important things to keep an eye out for when it comes to happy, healthy cows? (e.g. With horses, one might mention snotty noses, listlessness, colic symptoms, etc).

You will want to watch for droopy ears, the animal going off feed, listlessness, basically the same things as you would with a horse. A healthy cow looks healthy, perky and generally happy. She will come for her feed and eat it when you give it to her.

[LMonty]

Laura- what is your goal in having cattle? Is it for the children at camp?

If so, the earlier suggstion about a miniature may be the best bet, and help decrease the risk of injury to kids not familiar with cattle. Just a thought...

Another Laura

[LauraKoz]

Thanks all for the thoughts... any suggestions on where to find a farrier that can handle cow feet?

I *think* a few of the vets I have listed (in case our equine vet can't make it out) might be large animal vets, perhaps they could point me in the right direction.

Laura,
I'd like to have the cow (yes, probably just one) as something new to expose the children to. Just as the horses, nothing is done without protective gear and supervision but we are toying with the idea of teaming up with the FFA and doing a farm-themed week. I'd like to be able to give the kids a little information, some hands on fun, showing them how to milk (if we're able to get a dairy cow), and so on and so forth. Miniatures are definitely a possibility, but from looking around, it seems like I might have a better chance 'renting' a full size cow.

If anyone has any suggestions on where to 'shop' around for a possible loaner, please let me know. Thank you

[melwynnd]

I'd like to have the cow (yes, probably just one)

A single cow is not going to be very happy unless she's used to being without other cattle. You may have a lot of trouble keeping her in.

I'd like to be able to give the kids a little information, some hands on fun, showing them how to milk (if we're able to get a dairy cow), and so on and so forth.

I have a milk cow I take to the schools so all the kids can try their hand at milking and ride in the cart she pulls. She's a very rare cow to allow so many strangers touch her, but she likes kids(also rare, many cows do not like children at all and become dangerous around them). She also would not do it if I was not personally there. How long are you planning on keeping this cow? If she's a milk cow in milk, she must be milked every day. Who is going to milk her?

Sherry

[LauraKoz]

Sherry,
I was unaware that a majority of cows had such a distaste for people and especially children. I myself have never encountered such a hostile or unhappy cow from my various encounters with them at farms, in backyards, expos, etc, but perhaps these were all special cows with exceptional personalities. I was unaware that they were as herd bound or dependent as some other animals, so thank you for the advice. I had previously been told that cows that were familiar with horses (and of course, having horses that were amicable toward the cows) would allow for all to feel safe and happy.

I do understand that there is quite a difference between wandering about in a pasture and having minimal weekly contact versus being petted and prodded on a daily basis, however, the children would have their lessons or whatnot once a week as the majority of their time is spent with the horses. As I said, everything is supervised and of course, before any cow/s was/were chosen, their personality would be evaluated as well as their ground manners.

As for acquiring a milk cow, just like with the feeding and other daily care, myself or a staff member would be milking her...

Thank you.

Originally Posted by LauraKoz

Sherry,
I was unaware that a majority of cows had such a distaste for people and especially children. I myself have never encountered such a hostile or unhappy cow from my various encounters with them at farms, in backyards, expos, etc, but perhaps these were all special cows with exceptional personalities. I was unaware that they were as herd bound or dependent as some other animals, so thank you for the advice. I had previously been told that cows that were familiar with horses (and of course, having horses that were amicable toward the cows) would allow for all to feel safe and happy.

I do understand that there is quite a difference between wandering about in a pasture and having minimal weekly contact versus being petted and prodded on a daily basis, however, the children would have their lessons or whatnot once a week as the majority of their time is spent with the horses. As I said, everything is supervised and of course, before any cow/s was/were chosen, their personality would be evaluated as well as their ground manners.

As for acquiring a milk cow, just like with the feeding and other daily care, myself or a staff member would be milking her...

Thank you.

It isn't that cows dislike children, just that most cattle are not exposed to them. A cow can be trained, but you have to take the time to do it correctly. And cows are very much herd animals. In my experience cows and horses do not generally make good companions. Goats and sheep however would likely be a better choice.

[LMonty]

Laura-

just a thought- you might want to chaeck around at local dairies and see if they have any culls to sell. They may have one with sore feet or other issues that wouldnt affect your need, but isnt the most efficient for theirs so they are looking to replace her. An amish farm whre they are hand milked might be an option. The issue then is the gentlenesss and ability of the cow to accept humans children. Either that or wait until you can find one on a board like this for sale that meets the needs, a family milk cow that is old or being replaced. Even if you have to transport a day to get her- it would be worth it from the safely standpoint, IMHO.

[melwynnd]

I was unaware that a majority of cows had such a distaste for people and especially children.

Cows get very bonded to their daily handlers and tend to be shy or agressive around strangers. My sweet little Daisy, who allows 105 children try to milk in a few hours, will lower her head and blow snot at my husband if he even gets in the corral with her( I never believed him about this until I saw it!). As for the children, unless cows are exposed to them, they tend to treat them as predators as they are about the right sized and tend to move quickly like a predator would. For someone primarily used to horses this may not sound like such a problem, but you must remember that cattle turn and face their enemies rather than running away. You will also encounter the same herd-related behavior toward you as you do with horses, but cows are much more physical and much less sensitive to touch.

I was unaware that they were as herd bound or dependent as some other animals, so thank you for the advice. I had previously been told that cows that were familiar with horses (and of course, having horses that were amicable toward the cows) would allow for all to feel safe and happy.

They are herd animals and depend on numbers for defence. I do not keep my cows with my team of Morgan horses. Horses tend to dominate and intimidate a cow even if they don't outright chase them through the fence. Sometimes this can be very subtle like not allowing the cow to eat and drink where she wants or not allowing her to lay where she wants to chew her cud.

I do understand that there is quite a difference between wandering about in a pasture and having minimal weekly contact versus being petted and prodded on a daily basis, however, the children would have their lessons or whatnot once a week as the majority of their time is spent with the horses. As I said, everything is supervised and of course, before any cow/s was/were chosen, their personality would be evaluated as well as their ground manners.

Any milk cow will be used to daily attention, but they are very routine oriented. I'm quite sure you would be able to accustom a gentle cow to what you want, but be advised that the daily milker will most likely have to be there for the cow to accept the change. They will do a lot for a person they trust.

As for acquiring a milk cow, just like with the feeding and other daily care, myself or a staff member would be milking her...

Just curious, would you use the milk?

I'm not trying to discourage you from this idea. I think it's great for kids to have contact with their food sources. It's why I do this with Daisy. But you must realize that cows are much different than horses. In a great many ways they are safer and easier to deal with. But they do not react the same way as horses to scary things. Horses run, this is not the cow's first reaction.

Another idea, if you are not wanting to deal with milk, see if you can find a pair of casterated oxen a 4-Her has trained.


Sherry

[DixyDoodle]

Gosh, are cows all that dangerous? LOL I'm thinking back to when I was a kid, we used to wander into the neighbour's field to play with his cattle (don't worry, he knew). The only ones we kept an eye on were the "bulls" but now that I think about it, no doubt they were castrated (I didn't look that close!), but they were obviously not "cows". LOL We would walk amongst the herd and they wouldn't even get up if they were laying down. We could go right up to most and sit on their sides. There was one old girl that I used to "ride".

Well yeah, it makes sense that an animal not accustomed to strangers/kids would not be overly friendly. I just wonder how my childhood cattle exploits went off so well? These cattle were left out in the field pretty much 24/7 with little interaction by humans (not counting us). Maybe we were just lucky!