Actual milking ability of dexters?

[Mountaineer]

I've read in numerous places how they are good for milk and meat. Then last night I read in John Seymour's self sufficiency book- that (in his experience) they were not efficient producers. He mentioned he got more milk from his 2 goats.
Is he right or just buyesy to jersey's?
I mean- you can milk any cow that will let you. Doesn't mean it's worth the hay. Is getting a dexter for the purpose of milk a poor plan? Would a jersey be a better bet?
Around here there are dexters, but I don't think anybody is breeding for milking ability.
Thanks for your thoughts!

[genebo]

I just sold a cow that is giving enough milk for a family of 5 and her calf. The family takes 4 or 5 quarts each day, and the calf drinks the rest. They were drinking goat's milk, but the Dexter milk tastes so much better, that they no longer drink goat's milk.

Not all Dexters are created equal. Unlike dairy herds, that have been extensively line bred to optimize their milk production, the Dexters are a fairly primitive breed. Milking ability varies. You should examine the parentage of a heifer that you're expecting to use as a milk cow. Some people have bought lower production Dexters and been dissapointed, but others are quite happy with their yields.

The Dexter has long been noted for it's high efficiency in converting feed. The claim has been made that Dexters are the most efficient converters. According to Oklahoma State University, the Dexter cow can produce more milk for its weight than any other breed. See: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/dexter/

Enzymes have been discovered in commercial dairy milk that are connected to the development of diabetes. Modern dairy milk is a little tough on the digestive system, too. Dexter milk has smaller molecules that are easier to digest, and none of the bad enzymes that have been introduced into most modern dairy breeds.

I'm sure that you would be happy with a Dexter from a higher yielding line. You would probably be dissapointed with one of the "beefier" lines, though. Look before you buy.

The advantage of the dual purpose Dexter cow is that you can get milk from the cow, and raise her calf for excellent beef. Dexters aren't the best in either department, milk or beef, but will give enough milk for average needs and the only thing lacking about the meat is the size of the cuts. It's delicious and looks just like good beef should look. None of that yellow fat associated with dairy breeds.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

[Slev]

I think looking for that perfect dairy cow out of a whole herd, is much like looking for the perfect student in a large public school! So much of what you'd be happy with depends so much on your needs/wants. I think it would be hard for me to say a Dexter isn't worth it. I'll let you know how much milk my Dexter gives once she calfs! Genbo offers the best advice....

Originally Posted by genebo

Enzymes have been discovered in commercial dairy milk that are connected to the development of diabetes. Modern dairy milk is a little tough on the digestive system, too. Dexter milk has smaller molecules that are easier to digest, and none of the bad enzymes that have been introduced into most modern dairy breeds.
Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

....one question Genbo, I understand that a Dexters give A2 milk vs. ???? does a Jersey only offer the A1?????

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Then last night I read in John Seymour's self sufficiency book- that (in his experience) they were not efficient producers.

He mentioned he got more milk from his 2 goats.

Is he right or just buyesy to jersey's? Thanks for your thoughts!

The man (John Seymour) was a writer and what Americans call a "homesteader" for a huge chunk of his life; well over 60 years, maybe longer. One supposes he had tried just about everything at one time or another, or had a friend or neighbor who did, and continued in this interest right up until his death a couple of years back; I would, and I do, take him at his word. Studies done to propel a breed into the forefront so that a few folks can make some money are the norm in the capitalist world, but in that same world the low heeled Jersey has been "the" homesteader breed since it became a fixed breed, and before. My little 750 pound first calf heifer, "Tulip", is still giving 2 1/2 gallons a day in a single milking, 9 months into her lactation, and she's just a grade Jersey of common stock.

Of course, a body ought to keep exactly the breed they want, and the very best breed is the one they prefer. For various reasons, I have several preferences other than Jerseys, but it is the Jersey that makes its home at Wolf Cairn Moor. Some of the other breeds seem to offer a chance to make money, but for the homestead cow, the house cow, the Jersey justs makes sense.

[Up North]

Originally Posted by genebo

Modern dairy milk is a little tough on ... Dexter milk has smaller molecules that are easier to digest, and none of the bad enzymes that have been introduced into most modern dairy breed... None of that yellow fat associated with dairy breeds.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

Just a few clarifications, Genebo - The Ayrshire Dairy breed, like the Dexter, has fat molecules that are easily digested by humans. It could, I suppose, be argued about at length whether the Ayrshire is a modern breed or closer to primitive ancestral genetics.

As to yellow fat, or yellow tallow, this applies to the Guernsey and Jersey breeds, and hence results in their reduced value as beef animals in the mainstream marketplace.(They are still perfectly good for eating as family beef supply.)
The other dairy breeds, like the Ayrshire, Shorthorn, Normande, and Holstien do not have yellow fat, or tallow. These breeds and crosses of them produce viable, marketable dairy beef steers.

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by Up North

The other dairy breeds, like the Ayrshire, Shorthorn, Normande, and Holstien do not have yellow fat, or tallow. These breeds and crosses of them produce viable, marketable dairy beef steers.

Agreed! That's kind of like how the old standard British breed chickens had white skin, as traditionally Brits preferred white skin on their chicken, while the American breeds were wont to have yellow skin. It's a cultural and visual bias that cannot be tasted as far as my humble palate can determine.

[linn]

Genebo is right. In any dual purpose breed, some of the individuals are better milkers than others. That applies to the dairy breeds also. The Woodmagic herd in England was a dairy herd for years. Depending on the background of the individual, a Dexter can be a good option for a family milk cow. Many people don't like Lucifer of Knotting; but I bred my Dexter to him because he is supposed to produce good udders and increase milk production.

[genebo]

There are a lot of good points to discuss here:

As I understand it, A1 milk has an enzyme that was introduced into commercial dairy lines some years ago. It's origin can't be traced. It spread due to the use of AI to increase the yield of the dairy cattle. Crossbreeding took place, so it wasn't confined to a single breed. It is reported to exist in up to 90% of all commercial dairy cows.

Now, Dexters have not been tested and found to be producers of A2 milk. Only commercial dairy cattle are currently being tested, to try to find some that still produce A2 type milk. These will probably become the foundation for future dairy herds.

In the meantime, your best bet to get A2 milk, that doesn't contain the enzyme that has been implicated in diabetes, is the milk cattle from breeds that would not have been cross-bred with commercial dairy cattle. That is what I mean when I say that the primitive breeds are most likely to produce healthy milk. Some breeds that I would look to would be the Dexter, the Highlander, the Devon and any other breeds that weren't traditionally used as commercial dairy cattle. It is the commercial dairy breeding program that is being blamed for the introduction of the enzyme.

On a different subject, a friend and I were discussing the old saw that a good dairy goat can produce more milk than a Dexter. He owns both. In his experience, it doesn't happen, although he admits that it's possible. The best dairy goat might well produce more than the worst Dexter, but that's no surprise. He just had never had a goat that good or a Dexter that bad.

About dairy beef: I've read that the majority of all beef consumed in this country comes from dairy breeds. The Holstein makes up most of the US dairy herd, and practically all of their male calves go into beef, as well as worn out cows. The beef from them doesn't grade very high. Most of it grades "commercial". A lot of the dairy beef becomes hamburger. One site claimed that almost all of the ground beef is dairy.

I'm perfectly happy with Dexters, both for beef and milk. The beef is delicious. I think it's better than Angus. I don't milk, but I keep a good milking line for those who want heifers that they can milk. Every one I've sold for milk has made their owner happy.

I suspect that there are not many people who require more than a gallon a day for their own consumption. Those that do would still probably be better off having two Dexters than a single higher producing cow. That way you could time the pregnancies to keep one fresh all the time.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

[DJ in WA]

You’ve got to question some of these claims. From the website Genebo listed:

“The ideal three year old Dexter cow measures between 36 to 42 inches at the shoulder, and weighs less than 750 pounds.”

“A milking cow can produce more milk for its weight than any other breed. The daily yield averages 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 gallons with a butterfat content of 4 to 5 percent.”

End Quotes

More milk for its weight than any other breed? Okay, so this is saying that a Holstein cow twice the size could not produce twice the milk of a Dexter?? 1500 pound Holsteins will produce much more than 5 gallons daily on average.

From the same site, I just found this statement under Jerseys:
“With an average weight of 900 pounds, the Jersey produces more pounds of milk per pound of body weight than any other breed.”


Haggis, I’m trying to understand the sizes of Jerseys. Your heifer is 750 pounds and a “grade Jersey of common stock”, and I assume, nearly 3 years old. I thought the common Jersey of today has been bred up to 1000 pounds (most sources say). How tall is your heifer? Dexters are supposedly nearly 750 pounds at 40 inches tall. My ¾ Jersey heifer is 42 inches already at under 8 months, and she’s out of smaller stock.

[Haggis]

My old cow Lucy will weigh 1000 pounds, more if she's heavy with calf and on good summer grass. My heifer Tulip is smaller and will be smaller as a mature cow. I sold an older Jersey cow that was also smaller than Lucy by 100 pounds. Some sites and some experts in books will talk of big Jerseys but if one takes the time to look at few it is easy to find a 1000 pound Jersey cow to be a big girl.

I gave Tulip's weight at 750, afterword I went out to the barn to give her another look, and I'd say 700 is more like it. She is pulled down some from the milking and Jerseys do give their all, so it's hard to fatten them while they are in milk. Jerseys will built a lot of frame their first year or so; then too, comparing the height of a long legged Jersey to a short legged Dexter kind of give a wrong view of things. Also, a Dexter being a beefy type animal is hard to compare weight wise with a Jersey when one is talking about pounds of beast divided by pounds of milk. When one talks of feeding a Jersey or a Dexter, one wants to not forget that with Dexters one has to feed all of that beef along with the cow in order to get milk, while a Jersey tends to be a skinny rack of bones with a large udder.

There are so many variables to take into account that comparing one breed to another becomes secondary to what one expects from a breed. The dairy farmer selling to a dairy wants lots of milk and fine steers for the beef market; they tend to stay within several bredds of really big animals, while the dairy farmer selling to a creamery wants plenty of milk but with a much higher butter fat content; when one finds a dairy man selling to a creamery most of his cattle will be Jerseys, or so it seems to me.

A person just needs to pick a breed that makes them happy, and satisfies their need for a cow.

[Jennifer L.]

Does the average Dexter milk for the long haul? I mean, do they make a 305 day lactation, or are they short lactation milkers? I know Holstein with beef in their background can have a tendency to be short lactation cows.

Jennifer

[Terry W]

Converting pounds of milk production per pounds of cow-- how about converting pounds of milk per pound of a feed equivalent? Would that not give a much better estimation of how much the milk actually cost the farmer to produce? The feed to milk production would also show how efficient the animal was-- Some animals can be more efficient on poorer feed quality than others, while others have to have "the best' in order to remain viable in the herd.

[Haggis]

And too, there is a "maintenance ration" and to get milk there must be an additional "production ration". A beefy bodied cow will cost more and eat more to keep its beefier average weight, than a bonier bodied cow. Some breeds of cattle will put on weight with the addition of the production ration, while other breeds will just make more milk, and stay boney.

Common sense says that a production ration will be balanced against the milk produced, but if a cow is naturaly carrying more weight in the form of beef, she is going to want more in the form of a maintenance ration. In this regard a bonier natured cow saves the crofter money before she gives her first gallon of milk.

My rule of thumb for a production ration is a 3# scoop of 18% feed for every gallon of milk she gives, and in winter another scoop for herself. The hay she eats is her maintenance ration (all of my cattle get the extra #3 scoop of 18% feed each and every winter day; steers too). If any breed were fed according to this recipe the production ration would be equal across the board, but then there is the hay for the maintenance ration. If a cow weighing 10 CWT were giving 6.5 gallons a day (my Jersey Lucy gives this much), and eating $2 bale of hay every day, while another weighing 7.5 CWT was giving 2 gallons a day and eating $1.50 a day in hay, it wouldn't take long for me to catch on to which was more thrifty for the small holder. In such a situation, I would be saving $.50 a day in hay costs with the smaller cow, and be giving up 4.5 gallons of milk a day to do it. Cleaning up the stall, mending fences, filling the water tank, throwing down hay, cleaning the milking equipment, and a thousand other cow related chores take as long to do for a cow weighing 7.5 CWT giving 2 gallons a day, as for one weighing 10 CWT and giving 6.5 gallons a day.

Again, using the feed recipe I use, both cows would get their grain according to the milk produced, so in that regards they would be on an even keel, but when it comes to the hay, they wouldn't even be close.

Someone in the cattle business is going to use many more factors, but the small holder needing for a house cow or two is primarily concerned with what will she cost to feed, and what in the way of dairy products will she give.

Still, a body ought to get just the cow they want, one that suits their temperment. Maybe that's why there are hundreds of breeds and everyone of them, according to their enthusiasts, better than all other breeds?

[genebo]

Haggis,

You did the same thing that the person with the extraordinary goat did, comparing it with a very UN-extraordinary cow. You compared your 6.5 gallon cow to a 2 gallon cow. That's a 70% reduction in output. But you only reduced the theoretical intake of hay by 25% and didn't reduce the input of feed at all. You also assumed that the Dexter cow would be of the "beefy" type rather than a dairy type.

You wouldn't want me to make comparisons similar to those to determine just how much the beef from your cow costs, would you?

The dry Dexter cow is going to eat considerably less than the dry Jersey. It has always been that way. Then, when you start taking milk from them, the amount of additional ration you have to feed will be relative to the amount of milk you get. Surely no one thinks that you can get 6.5 gallons of milk for the same amount of feed that it takes to get 2 gallons.

In practice, there are many Dexter cows being milked without ever tasting a drop of high priced 18% feed. Some of them do quite well on pasture, with only winter hay. Even the hay that they get doesn't cost what dairy grade hay does. Mine get fescue blends or pearl millet for far less than the silage that dairy cows get.

The whole concept of keeping a homestead cow to milk is different from production-oriented dairy management. Maximum production isn't always the end goal.

Another note: Holstein bull calves regularly sell at the Blackstone Livestock Auction for $10 to $50. Dexter bull calves sell for $300 and up. Take that off the cost of hay and you're getting a better bargain. Besides, most families who milked twice a day and got 6.5 gallons would be far happier milking just once a day and getting far less milk.

Higher milk production goes hand-in-hand with milk related diseases. Mastitis, milk fever, and others are far less likely in a lower production cow. Health maintenance is a big factor in heavy producers, too.

If I had a commercial dairy, I'd look at things a lot differently. But you can't apply the reasoning behind commercial dairying to homestead cows. The rules and reasons are different.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

[Haggis]

I've only had three milking Jerseys here on this farm, two of them, older cows, give/gave over 6 gallons a day, and the little heifer I'm milking gave us 3 gallons a day with a single milking, while her calf had her for 12 hours and took what he wanted. Most likely the little heifer would have given us well over four gallons if we had milked her twice daily, maybe five; and she is a first calf heifer. She'll give more next time, but we'll likely put two calves on her and continue milking her once a day; she won't really be a fully mature cow until after she's had her third calf. I don't think she is extrodinary beyond any other Jersey, nor do I think my other two Jerseys are/were anything special as Jerseys go; one of them only had three working teats.

There are lots of folks who talk of their three gallon to the milking Jerseys, and some Jerseys give far more.

[genebo]

I agree that a Jersey is supposed to give more milk than a Dexter. It eats more, too. Many families would be hard pressed to use all the milk that a Jersey gives, so it makes sense for them to have a Dexter, that gives them as much as they want without having to feed the higher producing cow. Add in the advantage of the great beef that you get from the Dexter's calf, and you've hit a home run.

I like Jerseys. they are great milk cows. I sold a Dexter/Jersey cow that is a beautiful girl. She eats like a Dexter, and is smaller than a Jersey. She's also one of the gentlest cows you're likely to come across. That's the Dexter in her. She provides milk for a family of three. I doubt they take a gallon a day from her, with the calf getting the rest.

The fact is, people who need a lot of milk shouldn't get a Dexter. They should get two Dexters. That way, they can time the pregnancies so that they always have milk.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

[Haggis]

As I mentioned above, every breed has their enthusiasts, and to hear them tell, their's is the best breed going.

On the subject of getting two Dexters if one needs more milk; I would suggest getting one Jersey cow, as they average weighing only 150 to 200 pounds more than an average Dexter cow, but the average Jersey cow will give more milk than two or three average Dexters; given that the average Dexter is supposed to give between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 gallons of milk a day.

Again, if one likes Dexters, have them, as they are after all the best breed out there, just as are all of the other breeds.

[celestialfarms]

Hello there

I wanted to say a couple of things about milking Dexters. We had a older dexter cow that came from a very milky bloodline. On her 16th lactation she still gave an easy 2 gallons (those are imperial gallons on US ) and she was not on any special feeds. She was a great milker and I miss her a lot.

Dexters will milk for the “Long haul” and you will not be disappointed. We had three jerseys when I was younger on our farm and my uncle milked Aryshires, I would put my Dexters against them any day. I would question the weight of your Jersey’s Haggis as I know that the jerseys that we had were closer to 1000 lbs. and the Ayrshires we closer to 1200-1300 lbs

If we were to base Hay consumption on 2% of body weight my 600 lb dexter is going to eat 8 lbs of hay less than the 1000 lb animal that is 240 lbs per month. Does not seem like much, but that is almost 2 Dexters for the same feed as one larger cow.

Dexters will breed for a longer than conventional milking breeds too. I have not heard of too many Jerseys, Ayrshires, or Holsteins milking at 18 years. Not only the longevity of the breed but the smaller animals are a lot less wear and tear on the ground than the bigger animals too…..

Guys I have been around them all …..to each there own but I have had Dexters for going on 9 years and I would not trade them for anything.

[DJ in WA]

….but the average Jersey cow will give more milk than two or three average Dexters; given that the average Dexter is supposed to give between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 gallons of milk a day.

I can see how 6 gallons daily would be good if you needed the milk. But I found it to be a burden. Extra work to milk, strain, cleaning jars and equipment, needing extra frig space, then trying to sell (illegal here), etc, eventually throwing the excess on the compost pile. I guess you could make lots of cheese, feed extra calves, etc, but that’s a whole ‘nother level of work. I wanted to be in control of the milk, not have the milk control me. So my Jersey/Lowline angus works.

You’re right, we all try to market our breed. Or I try to promote crossbreeding. Just seems if we advertise nearly free milk (4 extra gallons a day for only 50 cents), many newbies get excited without considering the work involved. I read on other forums discouraged people asking what to do with all the milk, or discussing the physical challenge of milking that much, especially if they’re new or have never milked, or aren’t strong.

What do you purebred Jersey owners do with many gallons daily?

[Haggis]

We have two neighbors who buy all of the grain for my little first calf heifer, and in exchange they each get 2 gallons of milk each week. We have 5 children and 12 Grand-Darlings (number 13 is on the way), and they all drink a quite a bit of milk, they eat yogurt, they eat butter, they eat ice cream, they eat whipped cream, and they eat cheese. I've told my children from the time they were small that a person could raise most of what they eat, but that to do so they must eat mostly what they raise; if one has a large supply of anything, milk included, fine a way to use it.

When we have two cows in milk the extra goes a long way (or is it whey?) towards fatting hogs, chickens, and geese. We have never dumped a drop on a compost heap.

On Jerseys, one must remember that they are exclusively been bred as milk cows, not dual purpose cows, so as I mentioned above, they don't carry a lot of excess weight for one to feed in order to get milk. By the by, while Jerseys do range in weight from 800-1200 pounds, the average weight of a Jersey in America is around 900 pounds; again, just 150 pounds more than the average Dexter, and the average Jersey will give more than 13 times her body weight in milk each lactation. Dexters, if they give the aforementioned 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 gallons a day, and if they weigh only 750 pounds on average, will give 5 to 8 times their body weight in milk each lactation; that is based on an average 305 day lactation, an 8.6 pound gallon of milk, and a 750 pound cow.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle//

Again, I'm not picking on Dexters, if one wants them and prefers them, have them, but they do not produce more milk pound for pound than any other breed of cattle. The only really profitable and widely used dual purpose breed in America is the Holstein, and the average Holstein will give some 17,500 pounds of milk each year; divided by their average weight (1500 pounds) they will only (it seems like a poor choice of words here), but they will only give a bit less than 12 times their body weight in milk each year. A lot of other large breeds are used, but it seems that they are often used to build a better Holstein.

The Holstein will produce more mik than a Jersey, but less pound for pound precisely because it is a dual purpose breed; there has to be a trade off to get the beefy steer calf; it takes a beefier dame to get a beefier calf. It is this way with all dual purpose breeds. The Jersey cow is all about the milk. Again, these are all averages and every cow is a bit different even within a breed.