The TRUE cost of AI

[pointer_hunter]

I will soon be moving my cows over to the new farm and have started looking into AI as there will be just two to breed. I had talked to my uncle about maybe doing AI with a smaller Dexter/Lowline Angus/Mini-Hereford type bull to get a homestead sized herd started. He works with a Vet for the state and she said that the costs involved with AI are just not worth it and not to try and go smaller because there is no demand for that type of animal in our area. They said that having to watch for signs, scheduling an AI tech, purchasing semen (enough for a few times to get them to take) and all the other things involved is just too much.

From what I’ve read, they have a shot now that will bring your cows into heat within a certain time frame which will allow you to schedule the tech which will normally charge 15-50 depending on the area. Even with the cost of decent semen, it still seems cheaper then keeping a bull that you’ll have to replace every few years. Am I missing something with the AI process that makes it not worth doing?

[JeffNY]

I found the best thing for sychronizing cows, is a CIDR. You buy them from ABS Global. You buy the tool to put them in. Here is how it works.


It releases a hormone (progesterone), that causes the animal to hold, more or less does not let her come into heat during the time it is in. You insert it, into the vagina on say a Monday, you remove it on a Monday. Once you remove it, you give her a shot of Lutalyce. About 3 days later, say by that Thursday, she should come into heat. It is a good heat too. Why 3 days? The drop in progesterone triggers the heat cycle. I did this in a cow, she came into heat, it actually brought her back into cycle. She didn't take the first time, the 2nd heat she had was natural, she seemed to have took. Another one I did the same thing, she seemed to take on the first try. On Tuesday the 8th of August, I had a cow bred, she too had a CIDR in. I plan on using these, this fall when I rebreed. I will likely do them as a bunch, take 5 animals, and try to synch them. I will insert the CIDR about 45-50 days, remove it at 52-57 days, then they will be bred by 55-60 days.


CIDR are 89.99 a bag, they are easily inserted. Now keep in mind, they do cause a Vaginal Infection. HOWEVER! This does not effect their heat cycle. When your AI tech comes, make sure you tell him, you used a CIDR. He will put a sheath on the breeding tool, so he doesn't get any infection in the uterus.

Personally, I do like them, they work really well. They are easily inserted, easily removed, and sometimes you might notice the end sticking out some, that is normal. There are wings on them to hold them in place. It doesn't hurt the cow either. Using shots only is ok, but this seems to be a very fertile estrus, it is slower and you can do it on YOUR time, not wait for a specific time. That is the point with CIDR's.


Jeff

[Up North]

Originally Posted by pointer_hunter

I will soon be moving my cows over to the new farm and have started looking into AI as there will be just two to breed. I had talked to my uncle about maybe doing AI with a smaller Dexter/Lowline Angus/Mini-Hereford type bull to get a homestead sized herd started. He works with a Vet for the state and she said that the costs involved with AI are just not worth it and not to try and go smaller because there is no demand for that type of animal in our area. They said that having to watch for signs, scheduling an AI tech, purchasing semen (enough for a few times to get them to take) and all the other things involved is just too much.

From what I’ve read, they have a shot now that will bring your cows into heat within a certain time frame which will allow you to schedule the tech which will normally charge 15-50 depending on the area. Even with the cost of decent semen, it still seems cheaper then keeping a bull that you’ll have to replace every few years. Am I missing something with the AI process that makes it not worth doing?

Well Jeff has explained the high tech high priced end of AI options, guess I'll take a stab at the low-tech low cost side of AI, LOL.

First, if "The costs involved with AI are just not worth it.." then why are the Lion's share of dairy stock and a large number of beef stock bred this way?
I would say, IMO, that Vet is putting forth some pretty poor misguided advice.

By simply tracking heats, writing the day of heat on a calendar, then again at 19-23 days do the same, you can establish a pattern of when to EXPECT a heat. Then when you see her come into heat call your AI Tech, have him stop out and breed cow. With two or more cows, you should see them exhibiting mounting behavior to help you establish heat. When cow being mounted STANDS, as opposed to eluding the mount, this is optimum time to breed her, or anytime within 12-14 hours following STANDING behavior by cow in heat. Simple, effective, low cost.
You can use a shot, then do a timed breeding 3 days following shot. This will raise your cost and time investment as this requires a vet to examine cow to see if she is eligible for shot, and then administer shot if appropriate.
To get your ducks in a row, when you have moved to new farm, then make inquiries as to who in the area does on-farm AI Breeding. Call and introduce yourself, discuss what semen he has available. If the semen he has available does not fit your needs, ask if they will put semen of your choosing in their Nitrogen(refrig,) Tank and have on hand when you call for breeding. Some AI Techs will do this. Others will only work with products their company carries. Discuss this in advance. Make sure he/she has good directions to your farm and phone #.

AI can be lower cost. It is safer than a bull, and will lead to more rapid genetic improvement and better stock. Just requires some time investment and effort on your part. As to size of stock- That's up to you. Think thru your plans and objectives, choose accordingly...Good Luck!

[JulieLou42]

My cow is very demonstrative of her heat, so the only cost I have is the AI Tech's time, energy and semen... $35 per visit, and she's conceived 4 out of 4 attempts. Where she has trouble is with labor and birthing...that's been costly for us...3 of 4 had to be pulled by a vet, 2 lived...her first was breach and upside down and dead by the time I got to her and could get her taken to the vet, which took an hour on a Sat. morning.

[john in la]

The true cost of AI might be measured in your life and not money.
For 2 cows it is a no brainier. Do not mess with a bull.

With 2 cows you should notice heat as they will be riding each other.
Drugs can bring them into heat on the same day reducing AI tech charges. 1 trip not 2.

But on the other hand I can see where your vet gets her reasoning if you live in a beef cow area.
Dairy cows are touched every day twice a day so noticing heat is second nature but beef cows may spend weeks in the back 40 with no humans around.

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

With AI the performance records for the Bull you choose are well known and documented. You can reliably pick a bull to improve your herd. With the neighborhood bull it is a crapshoot.

I choose AI every time.

[Tana Mc]

We AI our Milking Devons and various other crossbred beef heifers. I agree with several of the above posters.... much less trouble than dealing with a bull for the rest of the year. See if you can find a dairy nearby. Most dairy men do thier own AI and if they won't do it for you, can put you in touch with somebody who will. I AI for alot of my neighbors who only have a couple of cows.
I don't like the CIDRs because of the vaginal infections but alot of folks use them with out any problems. If I am uncertain of a cow's cycle, I use a Lutylase shot to bring her in. My vet sells me a bottle nearly every year and I believe that it is less than $20. You can buy just a dose instead of a whole bottle. But-- just hiring an AI tech will avoid all of this. They usually will work out something with you for heat checking....
Tana Mc

[Tiffin]

I, too, am choosing AI over having a bull. The semen I bought is expensive but that is my choice looking for a homozygous polled red Dexter bull; had to have it shipped from OR to NY. The shipping can be pricey. AI tech is storing the semen and going to insert the semen when ready for $11.00. I don't want to deal with a bull: too scarey besides feeding. My Dexter heifer is going to be AI'd in September/October.

[Up North]

Tiffin -For the benefit of all viewers, would you be so kind as to explain the whole homozygous business!

Tana Mc - Do you milk those Devons? How Many? Do You like them?
How are You, your hogs, and cattle faring in this oppressive stretch of heat that just won't seem to back off? When I see the weather and drought reports out of Texas - Nebraska country I really feel for you folks and wonder how y'all keep your farms rolling along. I sure hope September cools down and brings you folks some relief( and Rain).

[Tiffin]

Please, refer to the following article regarding polled/horned:

http://www.kheartdexters.homestead.c...OFINTERST.html

[DJ in WA]

Well, this breeding thing is my biggest problem with owning a few small cattle. Two years ago I found a small Hereford bull a guy rented out for a month for $50. Did the job, but he could sure eat, and I got tired of dealing with him. Bulls like to beat up on stuff.

Last year I bought a 5 month old smaller type Jersey bull calf (cost over $300) and kept him til a yearling for breeding. I sold him, and was glad to get rid of him also – though gentle, he too liked to tear things up. Decided I’d never have another bull.

This year I’d decided to order semen, and I called my AI guy, and found in a couple years his breeding fee has gone from $35 to $65. And he’s added a semen storage fee of $35 per year. So, I figure a single breeding will cost me around $100 dollars. Semen cost, shipping, storage, and service. This bothers me as I’d hoped to make small time cow ownership somewhat cost effective.

Tiffin, how can a guy only charge $11? How much time is involved? Plus being on-call seems like a lot of hassle for that little money. On the other hand, seems my guy needs alittle competition. Haven’t found anyone else in the area.

So, smaller cattle cost more for breeding, with higher semen costs, and fewer available bulls around. I justify the cost with less feed costs (vs big cattle) since I don’t need much production for a family of four. I also know people who spend more money getting their dogs bred, and dogs aren’t much good for eating. And as others have said, you can get better genetics through AI, and that should offset costs by higher production, or higher selling prices.

My cows had better take the first time – makes heat detection and timing more important. I’ve got a heifer I’d like to breed next heat. I’m trying to figure out the stages. The past 2 days she mounted the cow, but I never did see her being mounted (standing heat). So, how does a guy know when to breed if you never see her mounted. Can I just have her bred the next day after I first see her mounting others?

[DJ]

DJ in WA
How did the rental bull's calves look?
check out the heat detection module on this site. Maybe it will help.
http://www.iaea.org/programmes/nafa/...web/index.html

[Tiffin]

DJ in WA: I'll be honest with you I don't know how this guy does it. When we asked he said he is part of a group called Genex that has people who have areas to cover and he has close to 40 farms that he services. Some farms are large and he could be there all day AIing 40 or 50 cows at $11.00 each. I don't know how Genex makes any money. But I don't want a bull so it's AI if I want to breed.

[Tana Mc]

UpNorth -- I wasn't ignoring your questions but I have been off line. I got busy and I had a lightening strike take out all of the phone lines in the house. Computer was unplugged and safe.
I have one Milking Devon that I planned to milk but.... I didn't get my ducks in a row for a cow-type parlor and she is too big for the goat milking room..... Also, she has a wicked set of horns and had an attitude that had to be adjusted before the kids or I handled her. She is now somewhat halter broke but I just let her raise her heifer calf while I get milking area arranged.
Meanwhile, I bought another heifer who much more docile and I AI-ed both girls.
It should be time to preg check them in the next week or so but I have not seen either of them back in heat.
My neighbor has an old milk barn and has given me all the stuff that I can take out of it with out tearing down the barn. I know there are at least 7 stantions in there..... I am waiting for it to cool off ( HA!!).
Tana Mc

Ps -- If it were me doing the breeding, I would AI the heifer 10-12 hours after I first saw her riding other cows. That may be a bit early and I would be alot more comfortable if I saw her standing for another cow but if that is your only shot at it...... In this kind of case, the AI tech can tell you alot about what it going on when he is inside and palpating. This might be a really good case for breeding her twice at 12 hr intervals.

[Up North]

Thanks Tana Mc - We are too remote for any AI Techs - So I do all the AI breeding. If in doubt as to the stage of heat, we will do as you suggested, breeding them , and then doing a follow up breeding 12 to 18 hours later depending on what we observe. We usually use a young sire for dairy cows or heifers if we double breed, to defray the cost.
Sure hope the plains cool down for you folks. You would just shake your head if you saw me milking cows in a sweatshirt the past few days, LOL.

[wr]

I would have to say that AI is definately worth it. First of all, the average person will head to the local auction and pick up an affordable bull, hopefully with some conformation but no guarantees on his libido and the offspring he throws. If that bull becomes bored, you can factor in the cost of chasing him all over the country and possibly end up buying the resulting offspring to appease the angry neighbor plus the cost of fence repair. With AI, you have access to quality bulls that must of us could only dream of. I had a neighbor sell a bull for well over $100,000.00 and although that's the most expensive he's sold, he's sold many others close to that. Most people can't afford the best of the best but they can afford semen on the best of the best and you have a much better chance of breeding to correct something or breedig to enhance a desireable trait.

[DJ in WA]

Well, Tana, I took your idea and found a dairy a few miles from here, and he’ll do my AI for $30 a pop and store my semen without charge. Thanks for the idea. Makes you wonder if dairies might make some useful income offering AI services.

DJ, I only got one calf from the rental bull – the heifer I now want to breed. I think she looks pretty good – plenty thick for a heifer. A big breeder near here who breeds small cattle guessed that I grain her to get her looking like she does, but all she gets is the hay leftovers from her mom (who I milk).

I’ve poked around the internet, including your site, DJ, and in general have learned to not get in a hurry – best to breed end of heat or a little after. I also need to spend more time observing, as total time spent being mounted when in standing heat can be only 5 minutes. Darn near need to set up a surveillance camera.

The other problem is that with spoiled cows, when I go out there and they see me, they think they’re going to be fed. They can abandon their mounting behavior in favor of food. So I need to watch them without them seeing me.

Tiffin - I see…… they charge $11 per cow whether you have one or a hundred. Seems they’d have a sliding scale depending on volume.

[Tana Mc]

Good deal!
Another problem with spoiled cows is that sometimes they will stop riding each other and come over and try to ride YOU! When I worked on a dairy years ago, I always had to watch out for the heifers that I had raised.... I'm glad that they liked me but that was too much.
Tana Mc

[Oxankle]

I'm raising registered Angus and recently disposed of my herd bull. He was a good, well bred bull but there was no possibility of improving the herd with no source of improved genetics. The ABS man here charges $10 plus the cost of semen but because I have one or two cows at a time I voluntarily pay more. He cannot buy diesel to drive over here for $10.

So far he has not missed. I call him when I see a cow in standing heat. I pen the cow and he comes as close to twelve hours later as possible. Last Tuesday we bred one at 9:30 PM because he was tied up earlier.

An opinion: If you are a small-timer your best choice will be an older bull with proven genetics. A bull with 350 or 1000 calves will be a known quantity--you can bet on his calves being as described in the catalogue. If you breed to a young bull the semen may be cheaper but you are putting money on a crapshoot. If the catalogue says that a bull is 95% likely to pass on his good traits to a calf he is a better buy at $35 than a young bull at $15. Let the big boys test the bulls.
Ox