Fence Questions.

[daytrader]

I am in the middle of putting up a High tension fence. It will be 4 feet high with 5 strands. 2 electric for 3 acres.

1) Do I need any electric at all? Is two a good choice should I go with 1 none or all?

2) One of my runs is going to give me some trouble It is the highest point and on a hill. The bottom wire on that run will end up hitting the ground if I kept it in line with the rest. I was thinking of running all the same8 inches apart and letting come to that post were it comes too. Then running one or two more wires under it.

3) I set the end Posts as 4x4x 8 foot. They are 4 feet in the ground and set in concrete to the top. Did I use to much cement?

4) I am using T post as my line posts. I bought my material from a online fence company. I bought the BEST insulators I could find. Did I go wrong not buying all wooded posts? I figured its 3 acres. I also set the posts and the deals were you have to wood posts and a side rail to tighten the wires in 4 feet deep and filled them with cement.

5) In this 3 acres there is a DEEP creek. down the middle. Should I just run one of those 18" 1 line electric fences to keep cattle out of the creek? Will they stay out on their own? Its about 8 -10 feet deep and almost a straight drop off.

I am sure I will come up with more after I get some feed back.

[warrior]

High tension is overkill unless you are dealing with wild herd reared cattle or sell stock that is unacustomed to your fence. I can hold cattle in a single strand electric if they are acclimated to it and that "fence" would consist of 2x2 "posts" sticking 30" up on 10' centers. Though calves will tend to skirt out underneath this set up until they are larger. This same set up is about right for dividing the graze up into smaller paddocks. Standard fence for me is four strand barbed wire set a hammers width apart (circa 16") starting at a hammers width off the ground. If the stock wants to try the fence a hot wire run at the level of the third wire on the inside will make a believer out of them. Definitely keep them out of the creek. Cattle and deep water don't mix even though they can swim the steep banks would trap them in the water and cattle will get stuck. T-post are fine as long as you keep the wire off of it and grounding out, also keeps weeds and brush off for the same reason. Be sure your coner posts are braced because even with barbed wire you need tension on the wire.

[JeffNY]

I agree with warrior, sounds like overkill. We too have used one strand, and currently 1 strand is holding in the animals without issues. Once they know its there, and know its live, they won't mess with it. Two strands of electric add a little extra defense. An angus bull calf I bought early last month would never have been kept back from a single strand. He did get out, took off, and returned the next day. So in his case, and animals like him, you would never hold them back with one strand. Depends what you get, will depend what you want to build. If you want to build something that strong, it will last a long time, and hold back other types of animals (bulls).


Jeff

[Oxankle]

The corners are fine. Even a bit of overkill for short runs like three acres.

Follow the ground with your wire. At each post set the bottom wire the same distance from the ground, and each wire above the same distance from the wire below. This will mean that at some points the tension on the wire will cause the wire to pull down on the post, at other points it will want to lift the post. If you have a post that wants to "lift" out of the ground simply dig a hole beside it with a post hole digger (three to four feet deep if possible) and set that particular post in cement--does not have to come all the way to the top, the idea is to have a plug that will not pull out of the ground. If it comes all the way to the top all you have is weight on the post; if it stops two or three feet down you have a "bridging effect" that requires the concrete to lift a cone-shaped chunk of dirt before it will pull out.

As for the creek; if cattle can wade it they will cross it. If it gets so high that it is dangerous it is best to be able to fence them out of it so that you do not lose calves in high water. Believe me, they will find a way to get in and across. A single strand of hot wire will generally do what you want.

Your creek crossing where the creek comes in and out of your property is your worse problem. High water will tear up your fence with debris, logs and whatever comes down stream, including dead cattle.

The best solution I have found for such crossings is a hot wire strung across the creek above high water level with drop wires every ten inches that reach almost to normal low water level--within l4 to l8 inches of water or ground level. Bottom of the wires are cut to follow the ground/water contours. This will present a curtain much like the old hippies' beaded curtains. Cattle that know hot wires will not even try such fences but debris runs right thru them. There is a controller on the market, costs $l0-$l5, that will cut the power to this curtain in high water but allow the main fence to continue. Without the controller high water will ground out your whole fence.

I make the drop wires for these crossings out of heavy wire, about #9, and I put a pigtail curl in the top so that they can be threaded onto the top wire and are thus easily changed--but you almost never have to change them. I use heavy dog chain for the top and anchor it to stout posts on either side of the creek. If you use wire or cable for the top you have to put spacers--PVC pipe cut to the proper length works fine--between the drop wires.

If you are unsure that your cattle will respect these curtains, train them to hot wires and in low water times string a hot wire across the creek BEHIND the curtain so that they hit the curtain first, then the hot wire. Be sure to connnect this piece of hot wire to the same controller the curtain is on. They learn fast, and as soon as you are confident of the fence remove the hot wire that is behind the curtain. If you connect one end of this "safety wire" to it's end post with a weak connector, a piece of string perhaps, it will pull loose in high water and let the curtain swing with the flow, but the curtain will then be ineffective until you come back and remove or replace the "safety" wire.

One advantage of high tensile wire is that you don't skin up horses as bob war is prone to do.

Ox

[daytrader]

I kinda figured it would be overkill, but thats better then not enough.

So should I go for the 1 or 2 lines hot?

[Oxankle]

If you already have the high tensile wire up, one hot wire inside it is enough. What will happen is that the animal will touch both the hot and high tensile wire and get a good jolt--the high tensile will act as a ground so that both the animals feet and the wire will ground it.

I use only one wire for interior fences, have one perimeter fence that is two wires and have never had anything but deer and goats cross it. It borders a creek in the woods and there is nothing across it to entice cattle.

However, do not get the idea that a two-wire electric fence will hold hungry or frightened cattle. They will run right thru it. If you anticipate having frightened or wild stock you had better have a good barbed wire or HT fence with a hot wire inside.
Ox

[Trisha in WA]

Originally Posted by Oxankle

However, do not get the idea that a two-wire electric fence will hold hungry or frightened cattle. They will run right thru it. If you anticipate having frightened or wild stock you had better have a good barbed wire or HT fence with a hot wire inside.
Ox

I bought a cow that ran right through my 5 strand (3 hot) New Zealand fence(high tensil). I also have horses and if you don't use springs you can expect some very nasty cuts. The wire is streathced to 200lbs and the springs alow you to know exactly how tight your fence is as well as having some give to not cut your stock. Gallagher puts out a great instruction booklet (availble at most feed stores free) on installing this kind of fencing. It isn't like any other fencing material. Do your homework or you may regret your mistakes in instalation.
Good luck.

[Oxankle]

Trisha;
I'm surprised to hear that the HT wire will cut horses since there is a barbless twist wire sold for horse fencing. I suppose it is the tension on the wire that does the damage. A neighbor here has some big pastures fenced with HT and electricity, but his pastures are for sheep. I've never used any of it myself. I don't believe he has any springs on his fences.

I do see springs on the cable fences people are putting up, and I use springs on my electric fences to take the shock when deer hit them. I also use wire reels as the wire stretches over time and after being hit.

Speaking of cattle going thru fences; I sold a bull last week, a 5 year old angus that was literally a pet. Docile, easily worked and calm. Buyer put him in a strange pasture with a cow in heat across the fence. Bull literally walked thru the fence. Three men worked him back into his own pasture, two of them spent all day running hot wires. I heard yesterday that he is back to eating cubes out of his owner's hand.
Ox

[daytrader]

I have not ran the wire yet, the posts are drying.

I plan on running 5 wires 2 of them hot. I may just run one of them hot.

[vtfarma]

I'm thinking that you could probably hold prisoners with that fence!! lol. We have 2 strands of barbed wire with one electric in the middle. We set the bottom strand a set height above the ground, and then the next 2 a set height so that it follows the lay of the land. We have pastures across the road that have 2 strands of electric. The only time we had a problem was with a new calf that couldn't figure out what to do with the fence. She got bit a couple of times and is easily kept in. When we cross the cows we have a lane that is just baling twine - they are trained to it and trot right through with no problems.

BTw our posts are pressure treated 2 x 4s that are cut on the end in a point. Works well for us. Across the road we either have t posts or the little round jobbers with wood for corners (2 x 4's ) no problems yet.

[genebo]

My neighbor has 3 strands of high tensile with electric. Any time the power goes off, his calves walk right through it. Sometimes a cow will follow.

I'd like to talk him into using a solar charger so he won't keep losing power.

Calves are hard to keep in, anyway. I don't think they understand the rules.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[lgslgs]

We have 7 strand high tensile, 3 hot for goats and a calf. That keeps the wires close enough together that goat kids and all but extremely small dogs will catch a zap if they test it.

Like your land, ours has a lot of ups and downs. We adjust the spacers in some oof the areas to conform to the shape of the land, and have other areas where we've had to put welded wire aprons on. In 4 areas, we cross ravines and the bottom of the fence is actually 3 to 5 feet up in the air with hog panels cut to shape in order to fence across the ravine. Those sections REALLY look like a prison. All we need is a bit of razor wire on top.

A lot of animals will move FORWARD to escape a zap, so wider wire spacing can actually encourage an animal to tough it out and move forward through the fence instead of backing away. If they get zapped behind the ears, they'll usually move forward. Not a big concern for cattle, but definitely something to consider for goats or predator control.

Lynda

[warrior]

Originally Posted by Oxankle

Speaking of cattle going thru fences; I sold a bull last week, a 5 year old angus that was literally a pet. Docile, easily worked and calm. Buyer put him in a strange pasture with a cow in heat across the fence. Bull literally walked thru the fence. Three men worked him back into his own pasture, two of them spent all day running hot wires. I heard yesterday that he is back to eating cubes out of his owner's hand.
Ox

That reminds me of Poncho. A gorgeous Black Angus bull that we owned at the heyday of our cattle operation. We ran two cow herds with two different bulls Poncho was our angus bull and the other was Lefty our Hereford bull. They were in seperate pastures seperated by a road. Poncho was the jealous sort even though the smallest child was safe around him any other bull was in mortal danger. One time after doing some swapping of cows in the two herds Poncho decided to go retrieve his girls. He walked through four fences do do so. Two barbed wire (one brand new) and two hog wire with barbed wire top strand. When we arrived on the scene Poncho was in the process of kicking the out of Lefty. It took a pick up truck and tow rope to get those two apart.
If your planning on fooling with bulls (plural) you are going to need good fences and facilities. A single bull can be quite gentle as long as there are no nearby temptations to be bad.

[Hammer4]

I would insulate three of your 5 wires while you are putting them up. That way if you decide you need electric you can have it just by hooking the wires to the fence charger. The insulators are cheap.

We did that, never needed it until we got a bull and some calves. The horses and cows stayed in fine, but the bull and calves would crawl thru the high tensile fence when they wanted to. I hooked up the fence charger and put a stop to that, no more escape artists. haha.

I don't understand the comment above about when the power goes out the neighbors cows go right thru the fence...it's not like they know the power is out. His fence must have a weak fence charger or be partially grounded out normally as a good fence charger will put enough of a pop to an animal that they will avoid the fence wires from then on. If his fence is weak enough they are always testing it with their noses he should get it corrected.

Oh I just reread it, he only has 3 strands, that few of strands is hard to keep calves in period as you have to space them far enough apart they can squeeze thru easily. We had the same problem with 3 strands, after the calves came along and I saw how short they are ( Dexter calves ) I went back and put a new bottom strand ( grounded ) on a foot off the ground...that stopped the escapes as the next wire up was hot.

Electric fences are great deterrence....once the animal knows what it feels like to contact the fence, they stay away...so your animals stay in, the fences stay up and not pushed over, etc.

[daytrader]

I am insulating every wire. Isn't that the right way? Or am I messing up doing that?

I am going to run the wire this weekend. Its been real cold here. 7 degrees last night and 12 this am. I want to make dang sure the cement is good and dry. It is 4 feet deep.

[genebo]

I put my fence posts in concrete, also. Expensive and hard work.

When I put my internal fencing up, I'd talked to some people who recommended just putting them in the ground, no cement. I did and am delighted.

I hit one of the posts with the tractor and loosened it. Before I got around to doing something about it, it rained and the post healed itself! It's good and tight.

I know the posts will rot one day, and I'll be glad that the internal fences won't leave a hunk of concrete where the post used to be.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[Oxankle]

Genebo;

If cattle are walking thru electric fences there is something terribly wrong with the charger.

My cattle will not cross a string laid on the ground unless I first assure them that it is not charged. For months I had a baler-twine gate across the barn lot entrance. There have been times (when I was using a battery-charged controller) that the battery would go down and it might be two weeks before I saw that the fence was not hot.

A bull I had and the neighbors bulls regularly tore up the fence between us, once so bad I just had to rebuild about 200 yards of it. I put one hot wire along that line and from then on the bulls would run up and stop about 5 feet out and bellow at each other. (If they are butting heads and one gets a charge the other gets it too.)

Along that line; one of my chargers is a Parmak 110 volt unit. It usually put the needle about 2/3 way across the scale on the voltmeter. Lightning hit it and fried the works, so I sent it in and Parmak rebuilt it to current standards. Now it pegs the meter and the cattle know it. It is one hot baby. It maintains a some charge on the line even with a mild ground--takes a direct ground, metal to earth, to slow it down.
Ox

[Hammer4]

Originally Posted by daytrader

I am insulating every wire. Isn't that the right way? Or am I messing up doing that?

I am going to run the wire this weekend. Its been real cold here. 7 degrees last night and 12 this am. I want to make dang sure the cement is good and dry. It is 4 feet deep.

Keep in mind that a grounded wire or two can help an animal that contacts the fence get grounded well to get a good zap.

If your grounding rods are at the charger and you are having dry conditions, the farther you are from the grounding rods the less zap there will be.

The ground strands in between the hot ones help carry the ground back to the charger better in my experience.

Here is an example from Tractor supply, they show using wood line posts and different spacings for different animal types:

http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp?pcID=4&LearnID=11

I use a 4 wire setup, most similar to the horse one they show with another wire a foot off the ground. I also use wood end posts and metal T posts in between.

[genebo]

Ox,

My cattle behave just like yours. When something goes wrong with the charger, they still don't go near the fence. They're trained to it.

My neighbor, though, is a different matter. He keeps a very hot charger on his fence. It was three strands, but we just added a strand. If his charger goes off, there'll be cows in the road within the hour. They are mostly Angus and a few Charolais.

The calves seem to lead the way and the cows follow.

His charger is so strong that the tube-type wrap-around insulators won't hold it. The current arcs right through them, through the treated wooden post, and on to ground. It still reads full power at the far end of the fence. He's fencing 65 acres.

His power does go off frequently. Maybe his cattle have been trained to test it?

Genebo
Paradise Farm