Intentional Community Article

[willow_girl]

Many 18th-century intentional communities (Amana, Oneida, the Shakers, Rappites, etc.) were quite financially successful. As a contemporary observer pointed out, why is it assumed that people will work industriously for an employer, when there is little chance they will share in the employer's wealth, but shirk when given the opportunity to work for the collective good of a small group of people with whom they are closely bonded?

[seedspreader]

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Many 18th-century intentional communities (Amana, Oneida, the Shakers, Rappites, etc.) were quite financially successful. As a contemporary observer pointed out, why is it assumed that people will work industriously for an employer, when there is little chance they will share in the employer's wealth, but shirk when given the opportunity to work for the collective good of a small group of people with whom they are closely bonded?

I think it may be because most people don't have to sleep in a common house with their employer... eat with him, share all their resources with him etc.

[Ken Scharabok]

I spent several hours flipping through the IC master list site above. Frankly I am astounded there are sooooooooooooooo many out there. There are over a dozen in TN alone. Admittedly many are annotated as (Founding) so they may just be someone's wishful thinking. Many are just two or three families sharing a house. Financial arrangements run the gambit from 100% income sharing to 100% income independent. Requirement to share prior accumulated wealth also varies. Spiritual seems to run from very strictly one doctrine to none overall.

Twin Oaks seems to be extremely structured and it almost appears they use the three week visits for unpaid commune labor. They have one group going much of the year with apparently few eventually requesting membership consideration as the group isn't growing significantly. Members are expected to fund non-commune provided items on $2.00 per day.

East Wind (the one in NG) seems to be much more loosely organized, but it is really hard to tell from their web site and I have not yet found a copy of the NG. Members are expected to fund non-commune provided items on $100 a month, plus a bit of profit sharing.

Both require about 40 hours of labor a week, although group cooking, clean-up, housekeeping, group childcare, etc. is counted as labor.

IMHO there are two basic defects to 100% income sharing when that income is limited.

- Health care (or really lack thereof): Both Twin Oaks and East Wind provide only minimum care. If you require more than a bandaid or it can't be fixed with herbal remedies, then you are on your own. East Wind doesn't mention care for severe problems but I suspect it is much like Twin Oaks. Twin Oaks mentions public health care being available to their members due to their low income level. However, like TennCare, options in some states may not be there much longer for otherwise healthy people. (If you visit a communal situation look at their teeth as I suspect it is a pretty good indicator of their overall health care, diet and living standards.)

- No retirement funding: Even if Social Security was being taken out of their earnings it wouldn't be much to provide much more than a small retirement check. What happens when their members get old, develop health problems and can no longer provide even minimal labor to the commune? Perhaps they aren't kicked out so to speak, but it become readily apparent they will have to depend almost solely on public assistance and will have to live off of the commune to receive it. (And if you are over 55, I somewhat suspect you will have to offer some specialized experience, such as extensive paramedic training, to be considered for membership. It is not just wanting to keep a mix of ages, per se, although that might be a reason given, but rather do they really want to encourage a high health risk member.)

Thread has been a real eye opener for me on the extent today of ICs.

[Mary Dooley]

My brother bought me a cookbook back in the mid-seventies which was produced by what was then known as a commune. Most of these places didn't interest me much because alot of them seemed to be "getting high,"
or believed in "free love," etc. However, this one did intrigue me. It was called "Sunburst Farm." They were called the "Brotherhood of the Sun." Here is a excerpt from the front of the book.
"The Brotherhood of the Sun is a family of more than 300 people, who have dedicated themselves to living in harmony with all people and all things.
Our desire is to follow the simple laws of God and nature. In order to create an environment in which this is possible, we have established four communities upon thousands of acres of farm and ranch land in the coastal mountains around Santa Barbara, California. We try to care for our basic needs by relying on the land. We have our own gardens and field crops, we rear livestock (including goats, cows, horses, donkeys, chickens and pigeons), build our own homes, make some of our own clothing, shoes and pottery, experiemnt with alternative energy sources, and are learning other necessary skills. We also have a small community living on our old wooden schooner called, "The Star Pilot." We use it for fishing; and, of course, sailing and experiencing the ocean.
In order to help support ourselves and to share with other people our way of life, we have established a large organic foods complex in Santa Barbara called Sunburst Organic Foods. This organiziation includes a large wholesale warehouse that ships food to stores across the country, three large retail markets, (with future markets projected along the coast), a community store, a restaurant called "The Farmer and the Fisherman," a whole-grain bakery and a fresh juice-bottling plant that distributes along the west coast.
Our dream is to provide a home in natural surroundings for people who long to live a simple, virtuous life full of love and service to each other and to all mankind as God intended. We hope that through our efforts and example we may help to bring the Garden of Eden back to this, our Mother Earth, and to see all men live in brotherhood under the Fatherhood of God."
I don't imagine they are around anymore, especially with the prices of the land around Santa Barbara. However, there were pictures in the book and they looked clean and neat. I think to be successful they had to have a variety of ways to produce income. I have often wondered what ever happened to them.

[Ken Scharabok]

I could not find Starburst Farm on the IC list. It could be they are just not listed.

When you read either literature from these places, or visit their web site, keep in mind some folks are creative writers. Sort of like a blind date. What you get may not resemble their description or picture very much. Their lofty ideals may not go far when they meets reality.

Also keep in mind many of these places may be quite a bit like Animal Farm to where all members are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[willow_girl]

I think it may be because most people don't have to sleep in a common house with their employer... eat with him, share all their resources with him etc.

I'm not sure you got my point ... or that I'm getting yours!

What I was trying to say was that people assume communes will be made up of freeloaders. But would you work harder if you and 3 of your best friends started your own business, each investing his/her life savings in its success? Or would you work harder if employed by Wal-Mart?

I am not sure if the fact a commune doesn't last forever means it was a failure. The 19th century communes have passed out of existence now, but several existed for at least a couple of generations and seem to have provided an acceptable standard of living to the membership. Some contained provisions by which a person wishing to leave was compensated for his/her share of the business. And, how many times do private businesses disband because the partners no longer get along or agree on the business plan, or wish to pursue other interests?

Therefore, I think a group like this COULD be successful if comprised of a carefully chosen group who are committed to its core principles. I do not think everyone would be happy in this sort of environment, but hey, it's a big world with places for all sorts of people in it.

[marvella]

the part that has always thrown me about ic's is that a real community consists of a wide diversity of people. if find it confusing that like-minded poeple band together and call themselves a community.

however, using willow's example, i see it can have a different meaning.

[Ken Scharabok]

raymilosh:

Can you address the two issues raised above (health care and aging members) as it pertains to this communies.

By the way, I don't see it listed on the IC Directory. You might want to do so to register the name if nothing else.

[raymilosh]

I have met folks from both of those communities and i have visited one a few times for a communities conference. I don't know enough about their health care or retirement funding to have an opinion.
Blue Heron is not income sharing. We don't have a group health insurance plan or a group retirement fund, either. So I spoze there isn't much else to say. Some of us have insurance and some don't, so I guess we're all doomed to live and die with whatever amount of enjoyment and worry we choose...kind of like all the other living things.
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, we do have a retirement plan...One member has long since retired. She is 78. She no longer participates in much work. She does pull weeds from the pond, is the matriarch, is teaching us about how to die, watches kids, cooks, opens her home to community gatherings, does secretarial functions and is generally one of our least mobile and most valuable members. She can no longer afford to pay her share of the mortgage because her retirement fund ran out (she spent her life as a teacher). We got together and figured out a way to excuse her the payments for the remainder of her life. It took a bit of doing, but we came to concensus. Others in the community are approaching that age, too. We'll deal with it when it comes. In a way, that is a retirement plan. Granted, we're not passing out money, but we're providing her what she wants...a loving environment, the ability to stay in the home she built and can no longer afford and assistance for the rest of her life. If she was relying on her "real" retirement fund, she's have lost her house and been shipped off to somewhere or have just died by now
BHF used to be on the IC directory. I guess it would be good to have our name on the list. In the past, many folks have called or come to "check us out" through that directory. I, personally have seen that interested folks kind of come out of the woodwork in a rather organic and spontaneous way as if it is just a part of the universe unfolding. Having our name on a list used to be a bit of an ego booster for me, but I'm personally trying to discard stuff like that. Plus, our community is approaching "full" anyhow.

[Quint]

Originally Posted by raymilosh

We got together and figured out a way to excuse her the payments for the remainder of her life.

That was an incredibly nice thing to do. Most families don't treat their elders as well.

My compliments.

[ozarkbunnyboy]

[QUOTE=Ken Scharabok]
Both Twin Oaks and East Wind provide only minimum care. If you require more than a bandaid or it can't be fixed with herbal remedies, then you are on your own.

Hi Ken,

I'm not sure where you got this idea, but it is, in fact, incorrect. As a former member of East Wind, I can assure you that I had complete medical coverage while I was there. Even provisional members are covered after six months, except for vision correction. All medical and dental appointments, prescriptions, chiropractic, massage, psychotherapy, and even drug rehab are paid for with checks drawn on East Wind's bank account. There is an elected Medical Committee which oversees the medical budget.

So, East Wind is essentially self-insured for regular medical expenses, since they have a large cash reserve to draw from. For catastrophic expenses, East Wind, along with other FEC (Federation of Egalitarian Communities)communities, has a group insurance trust fund called PEACH. (Preservation of Equity Accessible for Community Health) Each community contributes according to its income level and size.

It's really puzzling to me that you would get the impression that East Winders don't have health care! To quote the EW website (www.eastwind.org): "The community provides food, clothes, child care, health care, transportation and whatever else the membership deems appropriate."

Sincerely,
Bunny
oranmor.freeservers.com

[paulaswolfpack]

We go down there by the Norfork of the white river all the time I have teenagers I dont think we will go anymore. Iknow cant sheid my kids from everything.

[Ken Scharabok]

I stand corrected. Thank you on the heath insurance overage information. Wasn't the impression I got from their website for some reason.

[ellebeaux]

Originally Posted by paulaswolfpack

We go down there by the Norfork of the white river all the time I have teenagers I dont think we will go anymore. Iknow cant sheid my kids from everything.

OMG, you pass scarier things going to the gas station, does that mean you won't buy gas anymore?

Intentional community does not equal 'cult'. It can mean many things but EVERYBODY in the world has different beliefs than you do. That doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is evil or out to get you. It just means they are different. That's all.

Re: health care and retirement - how many people have health care and retirement through their jobs or family? Why would you not expect a range of offerings through an intentional community?

I think I need to go get some coffee...

Beaux

[beorning]

I lived at East Wind for three years.

The nut butters are manufactured in a modern facility that adheres to USDA requirements for food manufacturers. They have a massive cold storage warehouse to keep it in after it's made. No one is allowed to make nutbutter naked or nearly naked. Hairnets, beardnets, et cetera are the norm. The woman in question was likely working on food prep for the community, not to sell to people elsewhere.

It is a bit dirty there. OK, it's pretty nasty, by some folks standards. People don't bathe terribly often. Food prep, whether it is for selling or eating on the farm generaly follows acceptable standards for cleanliness.

It isn't terribly restrictive at all. Decisions are made via democratic process. There is no leader. The commune is secular, though people are free to practice whatever religion they choose. Health care, including dentist visits, are paid for by the community, and there is little in the way of restrictions as to how often one goes.

East Wind is a member of the federation of egalitarian communities. Twin oaks is as well. The most significant aspect of that, regarding health care, is that a fund is maintained for catastrophic illness of community members that the community itself can not afford to pay for. East Wind pays for health care in cash. They don't insure, or hadn't when I lived there five years ago.

East Wind is not poor. They own a thousand acres of land, and lease several hundred more form the army corps of engineers. They own vehicles and tractors, livestock and multiple dormitory style residential buildings, as well as a commercial quality dining facility for community meals. The nut butters business produces a significant income. When I was there, we also made hammocks and rope sandals for sale. Pier One was a major customer for the hammocks. All food, medical care, toiletries, room , etcetera is provided for by the community. In exchange you are expected to work forty hours a week. Work includes child care, laundry, gardening, raising animals, cooking, etcetera, so 40 hours isn't too tough to pull off.

The place is very dysfunctional. Alcoholism is rampant, as is drug use (primarily marijuana) It's not any sort of moral beacon. There is a lot of petty infighting and cliqueishness. I'd estimate that they deliver on about 10% of their potential at any given time. We had a Mennonite neighbor when I lived there that raised pastured poultry. We bought chicken from him and he helped us figure out our own pastured poultry program. He got more done in a day by himself than East Wind managed as a group on most days. There's a lot of trial and error that happens there repetetively. Since turn over is fairly fast for membership, no one remembers that the same thing was done five years before. There are always enough slackers around to keep much of anything from getting off the ground. Long term members tend to have pretty serious mental issues that keep them from functioning in wider society. People who work hard don't stay long. The slackers are only there long enough to get called out before they drift on to their next free ride.

In terms of aging, I would not say that East Wind has any effective strategy. Members are cared for, rudimentarily, if they need it. Twin Oaks is much, much better at this. They are more organized, much more efficient, and get things accomplished in much better ways. The down side to Twin Oaks is that they are excessively anal and process-oriented. (e.g. - if you want to ask me a question, then ask me if you can ask me a question) There was an ongoing debate when I was at East Wind regarding our ability to help mentally dysfunctional people. We were not good at it. It was a problem, and I imagine it still is.

The website is a bit deceptive, IMHO. East Wind functions primarily as a cooperative business whose members live on site. Nut butters is imperative to the community's survival as it is the primary income producer. Everything else is secondary. There was a quota of hours required to be worked in the businesses when I was there. Didn't matter if you put in a 70 hour week tending livestock and stringing fence, you still had to work your income hours. Members are afforded a stipend monthly for personal expenses. This stipend would be frozen if you were behind in your income hours. When I was there it was $90 per month.

I ended up leaving because I felt that I could do a better job at what I wanted to do on my own. Living there was a helpful experience, but also very difficult and frustrating. I have come to the conclusion that IC is a bit of a pipe dream. East Wind has been around for 30 years, Twin Oaks longer. You could call them a success, in that regard. The down side is that they could be 100 times the places they are after such a lengthy amount of time to get it together. East Wind in particular.

[beorning]

You shouldn't have anything to worry about on the North Fork of the White river, Paula. If you are concerned with nudity, et cetera, you might want to steer clear of the very small chunk of Lick Creek that adjoins the community, but otherwise, you shouldn't see anything that disturbs you

[jnap31]

Originally Posted by dheat

I like the idea of an Intentional Community. Does anyone know of any Christian ICs?

Thanks,

Doug

Shiloh community is a great old very successful established one in AR looking for new members as they are all getting old now, problem is they dont want to change anything or try anything new.

[jnap31]

Sand hills preservation farm is another cool IC in Mo. I have spent hours researching them also including oran mor and I did not see any that was adequate for what I wanted that is why I was interested in people with some like minded interests from HT buying land near each other in TN AR OK or MO.

[QBVII]

Jnap what's wrong with KY?

I've just discovered a unique place in KY. I've never seen anything like it.....it's like a time warp, in a way. Very pretty area. Very rural, land is relatively inexpensive and the people are the salt of the earth. The down side? Haven't found it yet.

Anyway:

Long term members tend to have pretty serious mental issues that keep them from functioning in wider society. People who work hard don't stay long. The slackers are only there long enough to get called out before they drift on to their next free ride.

That's the impression I got from eastwind's website, too..........I wouldn't be interested in even visiting that place. I would probably just faint from boredom.

I still am interested in an IC, but nothing like the model they are using.
I'm interested in "normal" people forming a community without pooling anything other than helping each other when needed, etc. Really just like a small rural community, composed of family. Nothing weird...

[jnap31]

Well said QBV11, nothing is wrong with KY per se that is where my family is from, Eastern KY. It just hurts me so that My grandfather does not want any of his kids or grandkids living near him.