Polyface days---rant.....

I live in an area where back to the land movement is going strong. Natural, organic, buying local have taken hold big time.

Joel has probably persuaded many to go this route. To steer away from large chains and factory farming and buy from your local farmer.

He is not saying, buy only from him. He is saying that if we have land, we can all do it. We can all provide meat for our own families and stop putting pennies in the pockets of factory corporations. He is doing his best to show us how.

As I said above, he is opening the door for us small time homesteaders. He is getting interest from the public, who are then looking for local food. Who can argue with that? I certainly don't.

OLF

I've never read his books and am surprised his animals are only getting 25% of their food from pasture. During the warm months (his entire year) our poultry get all of their feed from the pastures. They are the natural pest control in addition to the forages they eat.

Our pigs get 80% to 90% of their food from pasture/hay depending on the year and season. We also grow some things like beets, turnips, pumpkins, apples and get dairy which provides lysine, an amino-acid. No commercial feed or bought grain here.

And that is a good thing. If someone wants cheap they can buy the manager's special which is about to go out of date and from the factory farm. We produce top quality and charge accordingly. I applaud is ability to get a good price too. In a free market there is something for everyone.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa

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SugarMtnFarm.com -- Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids

Agree with Walter here on chickens getting all their feed from pastures, as it's what I said I do above. Also agree on the price issue too.

You get what you pay for.
Local natural foods may be a bit more expensive, but take a look at factory raised meat and you will cut costs elsewhere to make it happen.

So, basically what you want is good food, but you don't want to pay for it. You think Joel should just be like an average farmer who works his rear end off day and night and makes less than a school teacher? I think not. That's not a good ideal for anyone. If you have a market, grab it. I don't think he's being dishonest in any way - he popularized holistic methods of farming that work efficiently and make money. It allows him to life the "simple" life while making a decent amount of income.

This thread absolutely reeks of it. I simply can't believe it - well actually I can.

Rants are senseless. If you'd post a point-by-point rebuke I might be more believin'. As it is, I see this as just an all-out slam on some personal grudge. And snake-oil? I'm sorry, but there's a lot of snake-oil out there, and this ain't it.

I think he does a good thing, I'm glad there are farmers out there with his ethics. I have no problem buying that kind of product, yes, its mroe expensive, but I understand why and I just eat less (and lets face it, most americans could stand to eat less!)

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It's not that I don't like mankind, I just like nature a whole lot more.

Sustainable meat entails eating less of it. I pay the higher price for grass fed beef and local eggs and just eat it less often. The taste is SO much better. I would rather really enjoy the meat that I eat and know that it was farmed responsibly than to chew up and swallow tasteless, cardboard tasting conventional beef and chicken.

Sorry but eating meat 365 days a year 3 times a day is not sustainable at all.

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http://upwardlypoor.blogspot.com/

I don't know what the weather and pasture is like down there right now, but here, it's dead and dormant for the winter.

On grain, my recollection of his book, "You Can Farm!" is that he does include feed (grain) in the cost analysis of the various livestock....I do not recall reading anywhere in that book that he never uses grain.

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http://upwardlypoor.blogspot.com/

I wrote an blog entry about Joels' operation, and in it reviewed a number of videos showing his methods. What's interesting about Joel is that he has always been clear about what he feeds his animals and about how he cares for them.

What usually happens is that other folks start saying stuff and get it wrong, and then are surprised when they look to see what Joel is actually doing.

I wrote about his pig operations, but his egg operation is in there, too.

Joel Salatin and his pigs

There are lots of folks who claim that their animals get "90% of their food from pasture/hay", but when you ask them to prove it, they run for the hills.

I offered one fellow $10,000.00 to raise four of his pigs as he described. He declined.

I can't speak to chickens, but I sure can speak about pigs. What puts weight on pigs is stuff that the farmer gives him. Like this fellow, who feeds his pigs semi-truck loads of cheese and butter and tens of thousands of gallons of whey.

I don't know of anyone raising pigs for resale that isn't providing some substantial form of supplemental feed in addition to pasture access.

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com

Actually where he lives the grass stays well into winter. It has stopped growing right now but is far from dead. Still has nutrition.

Nickie and Chamoisee, I agree totally with you in regards to eating meat.

We eat less, hardly go out to eat, go to second hand stores for our clothes in order to eat meat that is not factory farmed. We have also been at the stage when we have raised all our own and butchered it.
Let's not forget the luxury of venison in season that holds us until we can afford non factory farmed meat.

He may have refined some of his method, but here's the real poop on what JS does: http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/d...ey/index.shtml

geo

Have seen that in action Geo and I was impressed.

We did basically that same thing in the 1950's, with some variations. It was called a "tromp shed" type of operation then, with a pass-through barn for hay storage at ground level and feeding racks where the cows could eat from them in a semi-sheltered loafing, or tromp shed attached to the barn. They pretty much stayed under roof for protection from wind, snow, rain-and the manure layer built up in the spilled hay, with some straw added whenever necessary to make bedding and to help absorb urine. Chickens and ducks were invited to share in the spoils, too, as we fed grain through the winter for added food. But, pigs were kept seperate, since we were on a tight budget(buying our farm) and good fencing for the whole operation just wasn't doable until later. We ringed our pigs to keep them from getting onto the road--or onto the neighbor's property, and OUT of Moms' garden. The manure--of which there was never enough--got spread onto the next year's corn field......

We did have a market for our animals--the Indianapolis stockyards--and I'm not so sure a farmer has a ready market any more. He/she would essentially have to sell meat directly to the public in some way or another, as Joel Salitin now does..

Here in this area of the country--SW Michigan--I think one would need a lot more acreage to do this type of operation, since the sandy ground is more fragile and lacking in humus and nitrogen And with the current economy here---those who are employed don't make that much disposable income to afford the kind of food that JS offers. So direct marketing in his kind of volume would likely go bust here for lack of customers. We do have a steady influx of summertime Chicago vacationers here in lake country that makes their impulse buying habits viable for fruits and veggies. Maybe some $15.00/lb ribeye steaks for the grill--but then what would the farmer do with the hamburg and the flank steaks--not to mention the hearts and livers?

geo

Real hard to figure out why he declined. If I was offered a test of that criteria, I'd throw the rat in the air too!

Holy Cow! (and Hog heaven.. LOL)

I have read all of his books. There are a lot of folks here with some filters or something, and only retain what they want to of what he says.

From what I recall, he writes completely honestly about stuff that fails, the costs involved, and how sometimes he makes a business choice that would not be his first choice if money didn't matter.

It's very selfish and false to use the "snake oil" references in this matter. He's never made promises or guarantees.
I like to dream too, but if you read stuff and it feeds your dream, then it's up to you to discern where your dreams and reality meet.

I think he would write and speak publicly even if he didn't make as much money from it. My personal impression is that his passion is more for the world, especially the US, to change it's philosophy on food production in general, so that we all will be healthier, and the earth will too.

Many here have stated that the "cheap food" habit has misled the masses and created a population that doesn't have the guts to make the changes that need to occur to correct the situation. Agreed!! What I get from all his books more than anything else, is the message he's trying to convey to as many as possible: our food system is messed up!

And it is...

When it's cold, it has less nutrition, although admittedly it is better than nothing at all.

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http://upwardlypoor.blogspot.com/

I've heard Joel speak a few times and bought a few of his books. While I don't buy everything he sells I have no quibbles with him or believe he is selling snake oil. My only negative complaint is the way he portrays himself in "Food, Inc" where he acts like your every day average farmer rather than a writer, speaker and advocate for particular approaches to growing/raising food. It makes me suspicious of some of the other folks in the movie - are they really what they are represented as?

As usual, just my 2 cents.

Mike

The only rant I have against Joel (and he is honest about this) is that his success is partly due to the ownership of such a large tract of land that he had little debt on. Access to a lot of infrastructure etc, that would normally cost start up farmers a lot of cash now. E.g. from that link posted above about trampled bedding (the Amish have been doing this forever)

All that adds up to tens of thousands of dollars. Don't get me wrong, if I was part of a family farm or had access to that kind of equipment.... I could do a lot of fun things too.

You mean he didn't scrounge for free pallets?

geo

You don't need a huge amount of land, or equipment to provide meat for your family and enough to barter with.

I know because I have done it.

If you want a business, scale down to what you have instead of wishing you had more. Rabbits, chickens, catfish farming if you have a pond, sheep if you have some acerage, pigs etc. All doable.

Think of how much you can save if you provide your family with your own meat...and then vegetables and fruit from a garden. It's huge.

Yes Joel had inherited land. So what? He has still had to work very hard from a very young age to make his farm what it is today. I do sense envy on this thread and am saddened by it. Just make do with what you have!

Look at Forerunner. He provides for his own family with his own sweat and hard work.

This is the perfect summary of the whole thread. It doesn't matter what "system" you follow. Just get busy with what you have and keep working at it. Joel inspires some, other authors inspire in their various ways. Forerunner inspired me when I first started searching on the internet about gardening/homesteading and found HT. Since then I've experimented and read various sources. I learn more. I try more. The cycle repeats and builds on itself. I did and am doing the same thing with my little service business. Use what you have - you have more than you think!

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The three divine teachers of man: worldly calamity, bodily ailment, and unmerited enmity, and there is but through God alone a deliverance from them. Maine Farmer's Almanac